A case where I would support torture.

No, not becase "we're the good guys", but because "he's the bad guy". As my jail example states.

Same difference. It doesn't change the fact that your post about "what is an immoral action to one person in one situation might not necessarily be an immoral action to a different person in a different situation" is non-sense.

The only disagreement you and I have is where the line is drawn.

Right. Your line is "torture regardless of results", mine is "no torture". Your "line" is founded in sadism, mine, in reason.
 
All, very true, but we're talking about a single case here, not a general policy of torturing everybody from private up.

So, when the next high-ranking officer is caught, he will not be tortured even if he would have a comparable level of knowledge?

And that "comparable level of knowledge" also extends downwards. A corps commander would certainly profit if he knew what the chief of staff of the opposing corps knew, so when he is captured, just bring out the rack. Ooh. don't forget batallion commanders. They could certainly use the information that any enemy officer has.

I don't see how that proves that having advance notice of the enemy plans isn't highly significant.

It doesn't. But it doesn't ensure victory, either, and potential costs of the torture are high enough to make it a bad choice.

Captured generals are not exactly low-profile prisoners. Armies (especially attacking armies) tend to keep rather good track of their generals and the odds are that the enemy knows that you captured him. What you do to him will come out eventually and that will cause political problems (in addition to military problems that come from mistreating prisoners).

As I said we're tlaking about a single case not a general policy. You've captured one high ranking German general with knoelegde of the plans.

I hope that you are aware that the Allies captured German plans a number of times. For example, Germans lost a complete copy of plans of invasion of France in late 1939 when a courier plane got lost and landed in Belgium. Notice how much it helped? Well, actually it hindered because it forced Germans to change their plans while the Allies had already deployed their forces to counter that particular avenue of attack and they didn't see any need to redeploy.

A significant problem about information from captives is that you can't know how reliable it is. It may be good or it may be bad. So you torture the general until he tells you a plan. How do you know this is the right plan? Torture him more? Torture him until he breaks down and invents a new, imaginary plan?

One example for dangers on relying upon POW information happened in July 1944 at Vuosalmi where Soviets managed to capture the defenders who had entrenched in the ruins of Äyräpää church. When the Soviet division commander interrogated the only officer prisoner, Lieutenant Erik Aukio, the POW told him the deployment of the Finnish forces on the North side of River Vuoksi. Except that he told that the weakest defences were where they were really the strongest. The Soviet division attacked the strongest defences and was repulsed. Whether this was because of the POW lie is not known since the reason why the defences were strongest there was that it was a convenient place to cross the river.

There is also the well-known (and possibly apocryphal) story of a Stalingrad captive leading a company of Germans to attack a fortified building directly in front of a heavy machine gun.

Well first of all what you write in a biography and what's actually true are two different things.

Given that I own over 100 memoirs written by WWII soldiers, have read many, many, more, and that I tend to check their facts from history books whenever possible, I think that I have a quite clear picture of general reliability of memoirs. [Meaning that they range from completely worthless to very reliable].

Saying " oh no we didn't torture, doesn't work anyways, nop we just gave them cigarettes and asked whether they'd feel like sharing anything"

Why are you putting words on Chuikov's mouth? He didn't write that. What he wrote was [translated to English by me from the Finnish translation of the original]: "The best way to make a prisoner talk was to give him a cigarette". No denials of torture, no mentions about "feel like sharing". And no need to create strawmen.

That's not to say it couldn't be true, but let's not overestimate the reliability of the source.

Do you have any specific complaints against the reliability of Chuikov in this respect? I wouldn't take his analysis of WWII politics seriously (like claims that Churchill delayed Operation Overlord on purpose so that more Soviets would die) but I don't see any good reason for him to fabricate that bit especially since that sentence was the only hint about the actual interrogation procedure in the whole book and leaving it out wouldn't have caused any distruption in the flow of text.

Additionally, he does admit that a number of Germans were killed just after surrendering (especially after his men went through Majdanek) and he specifically commends one recon patrol leader for not executing captives even though the Germans had murdered his parents.

Still even if it's generally true, that doesn't mean it's always true,

Didn't you read that part of my post where I wrote that "Does this mean that every captured German spilled his guts because he got a cigarette? Of course not. There was a great number of men who didn't tell anything"?
 
I can't imagine a WORSE torture than a false life sentence, with no chance whatsoever of ever being released.

I can easily imagine lots of things that are worse than that. I'm pretty sure that you too could, if you put your mind into it.
 
I agree with your views on a jail term. The reason for imprisonment is to protect the public and (theoretically) to let the miscreant consider his sins and pay his debt to society. The fact it might be torture is coincidental.

Now your terrorist wants to be tortured. It will ensure his place as a martyr in heaven, it will give his family immense kudos, and it will prove what a macho guy he is. I suspect he will be so brimming with adrenaline he will scarcely feel pain, and if you drug him he'll just go into fits. He is not a conscript soldier willing to do anything to stop the pain, he is a holy warrior/hero of the proletariat, willing to give his life for the cause.

If torture really worked I doubt the US would have pulled out of Vietnam, and I doubt the Brits would have effectively legalised the IRA.

And it is still morally indefensible under any circumstances.
 
I can easily imagine lots of things that are worse than that. I'm pretty sure that you too could, if you put your mind into it.
Depends on how much time in life I have left, and whether or not there is any chance of escaping, killing myself, or being let out. I would go for the life prison term, if I had confidence I could get myself killed or commit suicide shortly after arriving.
 
That is not at all what I have said.

Perhaps not in those words. Since it is impossible to know if your victim will divulge the information under torture, "torture regardless of results" is indeed the implication of your position.
 
Perhaps not in those words. Since it is impossible to know if your victim will divulge the information under torture, "torture regardless of results" is indeed the implication of your position.
Are you saying to never do anything unless first being 100% confident of success?
 
I proposed a definition is a previous thread somewhere.

Sort of like this:

If you can stand up in front of a room full of kids and comfortably describe what you did to somebody with no reference to why you did it, it probably is not torture.

First of all, I don't know why kids are brought into the statement, except to lay an emotive smokescreen. No adult would discuss such issues in a room full of kids.

Secondly, if you did something unpleasant to someone and couldn't justify why you did it or what you hoped to gain, then it probably IS torture, which is not to say that it couldn't be torture even if you claimed a justification.
 
I can't imagine a WORSE torture than a false life sentence, with no chance whatsoever of ever being released.
I don't think you mean that. Wouldn't it be worse to be tortured, really tortured, for the rest of your life? Failed electrocutions every other day (sorry, we couldn't get the voltage high enough), drownings on Tuesdays and Fridays (well, just until you lost conscience, not any longer), blindfolded and sodomized whenever someone felt for it ... are you sure you wouldn't prefer just being left alone in your cell?
 
This is the kind of discussion I was trying to get going. Strip it down to just the core of the issue itself (putting aside any chances of an innocent person being put through any pain at all), and see where people stand.

So I am curious, why are you opposed to it? And does your opposition to torture come from the same root as your opposition to the death penalty?

I oppose the death penalty solely on the basis that the system is imperfect. Innocent people have been executed. Innocent people have been exonerated of crimes while on Death Row awaiting execution. There's no doubt about Saddam or Osama's guilt. However, the Death Penalty system itself is still fallible. Thus, I oppose the death penalty in all cases. If one cannot have an infallible system of capital punishment, there must be no system at all. Better that all the guilty live than a dozen innocents die.

I oppose torture (in the case of the military) because I look at war from a non-biased standpoint. We should not do anything to "enemy" soldiers that we wouldn't accept "enemy" soldiers doing to us. If we wouldn't tolerate American soldiers being deprived of food, then we should not deprive them of food. If we wouldn't tolerate American soldiers being stripped and mocked, then we should not strip and mock them. The key question always must be: Would I accept that being done to the Marine that lives two blocks away?
 
I proposed a definition is a previous thread somewhere.

Sort of like this:

If you can stand up in front of a room full of kids and comfortably describe what you did to somebody with no reference to why you did it, it probably is not torture.

Kerboros and Freakshow:
OK, OK, OK, I forgot some parts. It is a definition in progress.
How about adding What you did to somebody confined, unwilling, and completely under your control.
 
Someone under enough torture will say anything to avoid being tortured. He will tell you whatever you want, stuff he thinks you want, and stuff you might not even want. In that scenario proposed by Freakshow, if I was the crazed terrorist, I would just lead the interrogator into a wild goose chase, provide him with all kinds of false information, make him waste time and resources until it was too late. The point is, torture doesn't necessarily provide reliable intelligence. On top of this, there's the indignation and hatred that the use of torture usually produces. Abu-Ghraib, Guantanamo and the recent prisons in allied countries thing are P.R. disasters for the US, and excellent propaganda and recruiting tools for the Muslim radicals. Torture's just not worth it.

By the way, how does this hypothetical scenario squares with the recent employment of torture by the U.S. of A.? Did they need to find some hidden nukes in Al-Ghraib, Gaunatanamo and all the shady prisons they've been shipping people to? This little scenario smells like a not very subtle attempt at justifying the unjustifiable.
 
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First of all, I don't know why kids are brought into the statement, except to lay an emotive smokescreen. No adult would discuss such issues in a room full of kids.

No civilized adult. Of course you could discuss such issues in front of kids if there were nothing to be ashamed of. If you knew you had done nothing to be ashamed of. Except for the incorrect 'emotive smoke screen' part, you exactly nailed the point.

Secondly, if you did something unpleasant to someone and couldn't justify why you did it or what you hoped to gain, then it probably IS torture, which is not to say that it couldn't be torture even if you claimed a justification.
Sort of the point again. It does not matter what you hope to gain. The information you might obtain might be accurate or maybe not. You know that. You don't have to worry about being able to justify your actions, there is no justification. So why allow yourself to perform acts you would be ashamed to describe to your kids?

edit to add:

And in the meantime, there is an electrician that lives (lived) a couple of miles from me who may be separated from his head by now.
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7278251p-7189976c.html
You think maybe his captors heard something about Abu Ghraib and Gitmo and the CIA secret detention centers? You think maybe that might have something to do with their treatment of him and the other folks captured in Iraq? There just might be a relationship here.
 
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Well, some people will be obtuse just to irritating and to get a kick out of annoying people. :) I do it in this case simply because I think it is a very interesting conversation. It is often interesting to change from saying "Its just right" or "Its just wrong" to actually examining all the small parts and trying to determine why we think/feel the way we do.

This is not a productive avenue to go down if that is genuinely your goal, which I honestly doubt.

It's a first year philosophy exercise to ask "Would you do something bad, if the consequences of not doing so were worse? What about a lot worse? Billions of times worse?". The result you get from any sane person is that if the consequences of inaction are horrible enough you should hold your nose and do whatever, and that there is a huge gray area between things you clearly should not do and things you clearly should do which is icky and uncomfortable. That's all the enlightenment you are going to get out of this game.

If you want to fantasise about torturing, raping or firing nuclear missiles all you have to do is make up some scenario where the consequences of inaction are worse and away you go. Have fun.

Dare I predict your next move? Coming soon from Freakshow (whose login is, if nothing else, admirably honest from a moral perspective) we can expect:

"Since you have admitted that torture might be okay in ridiculously implausible scenarios, the onus is now on you to prove that the USA's egregious, ongoing, widespread and unrepentant use of torture in secret prisons around the world is actually bad! We're off the hook! Yay!".
 
Kevin Lowe:
"Dare I predict your next move?...
..."Since you have admitted that torture might be okay in ridiculously implausible scenarios, the onus is now on you to prove that the USA's egregious, ongoing, widespread and unrepentant use of torture in secret prisons around the world is actually bad! We're off the hook! Yay!"."

Well said.
I think you just busted the case for the defence wide open with that one Kevin.
 
This is not a productive avenue to go down if that is genuinely your goal, which I honestly doubt.

It's a first year philosophy exercise to ask "Would you do something bad, if the consequences of not doing so were worse? What about a lot worse? Billions of times worse?". The result you get from any sane person is that if the consequences of inaction are horrible enough you should hold your nose and do whatever, and that there is a huge gray area between things you clearly should not do and things you clearly should do which is icky and uncomfortable. That's all the enlightenment you are going to get out of this game.

If you want to fantasise about torturing, raping or firing nuclear missiles all you have to do is make up some scenario where the consequences of inaction are worse and away you go. Have fun.

Dare I predict your next move? Coming soon from Freakshow (whose login is, if nothing else, admirably honest from a moral perspective) we can expect:

"Since you have admitted that torture might be okay in ridiculously implausible scenarios, the onus is now on you to prove that the USA's egregious, ongoing, widespread and unrepentant use of torture in secret prisons around the world is actually bad! We're off the hook! Yay!".
No, not at all. You are a terrible mind reader, Kevin.

ETA: And I think it has been productive in some ways. It has brought some interesting differences to light. Such as what Howie and I were talking about, regarding the difference between actions that cause suffering as a side-effect,and actions that are done for the sole purpose of causing suffering.

Also...nice ad hominem.

Got anything else to add here? Or are you done?
 
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Are you saying to never do anything unless first being 100% confident of success?

I see that you agree with my assessment of your position. To answer your question, No, I'm saying torture is wrong, inaccurate, un-American and fundamentally beneath a free society.
 
I see that you agree with my assessment of your position.
Of course! Nothing has a 100% guarantee. I wasn't 100% sure that I'd make it to work alive this morning, either. So what?

To answer your question, No, I'm saying torture is wrong, inaccurate, un-American and fundamentally beneath a free society.
Great. But why? I'll make it easy for you...check my conversation with Howie in this thread. I think there is good starting point with something I said there.
 

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