Cont: The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

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This is pure cargo-cult pandemic response. "Countries X, Y & Z didn't to Response "A" so we should also not do response "A". Meanwhile we ignore that Countries X, Y, & Z did response "B", "C", "D", "E", "F", "G", "H", "I" and country Z also did "J", while country Y has response "K" as part of its culture. But all some cultists can do is point at those countries not response "A" as if it were in a vacuum.
 
Gavin said:
Your link didn’t work . . .
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Here's another.

But by the beginning of June, Israel – which is about the size of New Jersey – saw outbreaks occur in over 50 schools, despite attempts to maintain social distancing and minimize mixing between students in various classes and grades. These attempts proved ineffective, though, as it was impossible to hermetically seal classrooms from each other.

Tracing found that infected teachers who taught multiple classes infected students in each class. As a result, hundreds of teachers and thousands of students were exposed to the virus and spread it to family members at home and beyond, contributing to the resurgence of infections in the general Israeli population.

Recent Health Ministry research found that in a breakdown of 727 people infected outside the home between July 10 and July 16, around a third (210) contracted the virus in educational institutions.
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As indicated, there is conflicting data on school openings, and insufficient data to justify rash decisions, though enough data to recommend caution. I would say your assertions are rash and foolish, but I don't think you are interested in such criticism; I suspect you would rather perfectly mirror the disastrous response of the current US administration, for whatever reason.

Speaking of reason, or reasons, there aren't any or enough to proceed recklessly, and every reason to be cautious as we move forward; this fall will be particularly challenging for our health care system and it would be utter folly to overburden it because the poorly-informed, or ill-informed wish to impose their ignorance.
 
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I've been thinking about Gavin's discussions, and why some countries did better than others. What is the main factor? Lockdowns? Masks? School policy? Travel restrictions? What is it? is there a common factor.

After doing some reading, I think there is.

The success of a nation's response is most highly dependent on how seriously the threat was taken by the population. I'm not sure how to quantify that, but that seems to me to be the common thread.

Here in the United States, most states had some fairly strict lockdown rules, but even in the middle of the lockdowns, there were huge chunks of population that weren't compliant, and a whole bunch of people saying that the pandemic wasn't something to be worried about. Of course, this starts at the top. "It's a hoax." "It's just the flu." "Kids are a tiny fraction of deaths."

Compare public statements by Donald Trump to public statements by Angela Merkel. Then compare death numbers.
 
Meadmaker said:
I've been thinking about Gavin's discussions, and why some countries did better than others. What is the main factor? Lockdowns? Masks? School policy? Travel restrictions? What is it? is there a common factor.

After doing some reading, I think there is.

The success of a nation's response is most highly dependent on how seriously the threat was taken by the population. I'm not sure how to quantify that, but that seems to me to be the common thread.

Here in the United States, most states had some fairly strict lockdown rules, but even in the middle of the lockdowns, there were huge chunks of population that weren't compliant, and a whole bunch of people saying that the pandemic wasn't something to be worried about. Of course, this starts at the top. "It's a hoax." "It's just the flu." "Kids are a tiny fraction of deaths."

Compare public statements by Donald Trump to public statements by Angela Merkel. Then compare death numbers.
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Yes, the inept US response to the pandemic is directly proportional to Donald Trump's refusal to take the virus seriously, or take any responsibility for his inaction.

His unapologetic public response was "I take no responsibility," available to any and all interested through a simple Google search.

Irony meters everywhere were rendered permanently disabled.
 
Those who advocate stuffing the schools with kids, believing them to be much less prone to dying from infection, are implicitly accepting the cost in lives among folk over 50. I'll bet most of these open-the-schools prostlytizers are not in that endangered cohort. And those that are are betting on being able to stay infection-free.

I'd like to see these risk-the-kids pushers quantify the death rate that would cause them to do a re-think.
 
Meadmaker said:
I've been thinking about Gavin's discussions, and why some countries did better than others. What is the main factor? Lockdowns? Masks? School policy? Travel restrictions? What is it? is there a common factor.

After doing some reading, I think there is.

The success of a nation's response is most highly dependent on how seriously the threat was taken by the population. I'm not sure how to quantify that, but that seems to me to be the common thread.

Here in the United States, most states had some fairly strict lockdown rules, but even in the middle of the lockdowns, there were huge chunks of population that weren't compliant, and a whole bunch of people saying that the pandemic wasn't something to be worried about. Of course, this starts at the top. "It's a hoax." "It's just the flu." "Kids are a tiny fraction of deaths."

Compare public statements by Donald Trump to public statements by Angela Merkel. Then compare death numbers.
Click to expand...


Yes, regulations don't do anything. It's the people's behaviours that are important.
 
Meadmaker said:
I've been thinking about Gavin's discussions, and why some countries did better than others. What is the main factor? Lockdowns? Masks? School policy? Travel restrictions? What is it? is there a common factor.

After doing some reading, I think there is.

The success of a nation's response is most highly dependent on how seriously the threat was taken by the population. I'm not sure how to quantify that, but that seems to me to be the common thread.

Here in the United States, most states had some fairly strict lockdown rules, but even in the middle of the lockdowns, there were huge chunks of population that weren't compliant, and a whole bunch of people saying that the pandemic wasn't something to be worried about. Of course, this starts at the top. "It's a hoax." "It's just the flu." "Kids are a tiny fraction of deaths."

Compare public statements by Donald Trump to public statements by Angela Merkel. Then compare death numbers.
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Absolutely. Not only Trump's insane response, but that of the GOP leadership and how Fox News presented it which was in mostly in lock step with Trump. There is a direct correlation between how seriously a person took/takes the pandemic and their political affiliation.
 
Gavin said:
Good points but it’s what I was saying that it can be done with out restrictions and I don’t believe Turkmenista had no deaths either.
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Hopefully this is a quibble here when I say this but... Without lockdowns. Not without restrictions. South Korea was actually a bit famous for a while there when it came to how harsh its restrictions were, even if they did manage to avoid instituting a full lockdown. That was very much dependent upon keeping things well under control from the start, though. Sweden isn't even close to being without restrictions, either, both official and unofficial, though they're much more heavily reliant on the unofficial than most other similar countries. Lockdowns are a nasty, brute force method to get things to the point where they can be kept under control (or potentially eliminated if there's the will) when either 1) the infrastructure to keep it under control isn't there or 2) the government doesn't have a handle on it practically at all.

To be clear again, though, pretty much no one of note actually wants lockdowns. At best, the COVID lockdowns are considered the lesser of two extremely unpleasant evils, which is where there's some disconnect involved for many. It's pretty much a choice between worse suffering NOW, but much less total suffering and damage, versus less suffering now and much, much more suffering and damage total. Frankly, it would be great if we don't need to go into another shutdown, but I'm willing to trust the actual infectious disease experts to be in a far better position to judge that. It's going to be horrible either way, after all, (as is to be expected of major disasters) and *I* would very much prefer to have leaders make the choices that well leave us better off in the long run, whichever one it is.
 
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Aridas said:
Sweden isn't even close to being without restrictions, either, both official and unofficial, though they're much more heavily reliant on the unofficial than most other similar countries.
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Sweden was one of the countries influential in thinking about my last post, where I said that the attitude of the population was the common thread in having a successful response. Sweden's results haven't exactly been fantastic, but they haven't been hauling away bodies by the truckload, either.

In Sweden, the constant message from the government was always, "You have to take this seriously. It's deadly." They had fewer official restrictions, but there wasn't any mixed messaging.

ETA: And, the per capita death rate in Sweden has been pretty awful, really, but a handful of other places have done worse., and their recent results haven't been as bad. In the long run, they may end up better than the United States.
 
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Gavin said:
You said I didn’t have proper links’s are facts so I assumed you would provide some sort of proof showing they where wrong
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You are attempting to reverse the burden of proof here. You assumed wrong in this case, perhaps not knowing that, on a nominally skeptical forum, people realize that the onus on people making a claim is to provide evidence for that claim.

Moreover, copy/paste links don’t do the job either. If you’re going to cite the cdc, for example, then show or summarize the evidence rather that just spamming a poorly-formatted blind link to their site.
 
carlitos said:
You are attempting to reverse the burden of proof here. You assumed wrong in this case, perhaps not knowing that, on a nominally skeptical forum, people realize that the onus on people making a claim is to provide evidence for that claim.

Moreover, copy/paste links don’t do the job either. If you’re going to cite the cdc, for example, then show or summarize the evidence rather that just spamming a poorly-formatted blind link to their site.
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No you are attempting to reverse the burden of proof here.
Plus you have no idea what the burden of proof is I’m not making
extraordinary claims
 
Holy **** snacks. My Pillow founder and CEO Mike Lindell and Andrew Whitney, an executive at Phoenix Biotechnology—a company that is developing and pushing the oleandrin product lobbied Trump in an Oval Office meeting to get the FDA to approve their product to treat COVID-19.

USAMRID and the University of Texas Galveston found inconclusive results in test tube studies against the virus. The only study that found a possible benefit in a test tube was authored by an employee of Phoenix Biotechnology and has not been peer reviewed. Even that study found oleandrin had an impact on HIV at high doses in test tube studies.

So, you remember the people who got sick from ingesting bleach after president dip ****'s press conference. Oleander is a commonly available decorative shrub which is highly toxic to humans and most animals. You can buy it at garden centers and online nurseries.

https://www.newsweek.com/what-oleandrin-trump-wants-fda-approve-plant-extract-1525503

We are likely going to see a spike in sales of oleander shrubs followed by calls to poison control over oleander poisoning.
 
Gavin said:
No you are attempting to reverse the burden of proof here.

Plus you have no idea what the burden of proof is I’m not making

extraordinary claims
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, that is the phrase you are looking for. You have presented fairly ordinary claims, but not provided evidence for those at all. I suppose it could be in the blind, unformatted links that you posted, but it’s really not my job to go find your evidence there. Please try to do a little better: when you cite a number, cite the source and make it clear where you got the information.
 
Craig4 said:
Holy **** snacks. My Pillow founder and CEO Mike Lindell and Andrew Whitney, an executive at Phoenix Biotechnology—a company that is developing and pushing the oleandrin product lobbied Trump in an Oval Office meeting to get the FDA to approve their product to treat COVID-19.

USAMRID and the University of Texas Galveston found inconclusive results in test tube studies against the virus. The only study that found a possible benefit in a test tube was authored by an employee of Phoenix Biotechnology and has not been peer reviewed. Even that study found oleandrin had an impact on HIV at high doses in test tube studies.

So, you remember the people who got sick from ingesting bleach after president dip ****'s press conference. Oleander is a commonly available decorative shrub which is highly toxic to humans and most animals. You can buy it at garden centers and online nurseries.

https://www.newsweek.com/what-oleandrin-trump-wants-fda-approve-plant-extract-1525503

We are likely going to see a spike in sales of oleander shrubs followed by calls to poison control over oleander poisoning.
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Ben Carson was in the meeting as well. So it was Trump, Carson, Lindell and that Whitney dude, or in other words, a cluster ****.

Communities ban the burning of oleander waste because it is toxic, and these idiots propose humans ingest it. Without clinical human trials apparently. Yep, sounds about right for this collection of stooges.

Jesus, Trump can't be gone soon enough.
 
carlitos said:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, that is the phrase you are looking for. You have presented fairly ordinary claims, but not provided evidence for those at all. I suppose it could be in the blind, unformatted links that you posted, but it’s really not my job to go find your evidence there. Please try to do a little better: when you cite a number, cite the source and make it clear where you got the information.
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I gave the source far more then anyone else has you are doing exactly what you are claiming I’m doing go back to debunking mediums and ufologist
 
First posted on August 8:
Gavin said:
Since Feb. 1, 45 American kids under 15 have died of #Covid.

13,088 have died of all other causes.

Since Feb. 1, 11,371 Americans under 55 have died of #Covid (most with serious comorbidities).

189,592 have died of all other causes.

You protect those who are vulnerable with shutting everything down
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Again yesterday:

Gavin said:
Only 45 American kids under 15 have died of Covid.
And only 11,371 Americans under 55 have died plus 80% of the fatalities where 65 and above and had prior illness
It’s not seen as a great risk children are more likely to get struck by lightning then dying of covid
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1 - Obviously, more kids and adults have sadly died between August 8 and August 17.
2 - You still haven't posted a source for those statistics. If I am wrong, please correct me.

Thanks.
 
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