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Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

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Many if not most of the new cases are people in their twenties, which explains the lack of increased hospital admissions and deaths. One can only hope they contain this before these idiots pass it on to their older friends and relatives, and before the inevitable 20-something does get seriously ill and/or hit by long covid.


This seems to be going on everywhere:
Dr. Fauci Just Issued This Appeal to Young People About COVID-19 (EatThis, July 24, 2020)

North of Copenhagen, the police have closed down an area where high-school students (in Denmark typically age 16-18) traditionally meet when the new school year begins:
Politiet indfører opholdsforbud i Dyrehaven - vil undgå 'puttefest' (DR.dk, Aug. 11, 2020)

And WHO appeals to young people:
Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) Situation Report 204 - Subject in Focus: Celebrating International Youth Day and the positive contribution of young people in the COVID-19 response (WHO, Aug. 11, 2020)

After its admonitions a week ago:
'Do you really need to party?' WHO asks world's youth (WorldEconomicForum, Aug. 7, 2020)
 
You are clearly taking this too personally. I don’t know what you imagine I said but I am merely trying to keep the subject factual (where it is factual) and pointing out personal opinion (when that is all that it is). I think you've crossed that line, stating your personal opinion but presenting it as fact. I have taken no stance but If I cannot express the difference between fact and supposition without you seeing it as criticism then it’s not good. Relax and do not assume that open observation is an attack. This is a discussion, not a debate.


No, you aren't "merely trying to keep the subject factual", but if you do so, we can go on.
And never say that we don't know anything when we actually do. It's one of the favourite arguments of the superstitious: 'Science doesn't know everything. It has been wrong before, and maybe some day it will prove that astrology was right the whole time.'

In particular in the current situation, it is important to distinguish between actual knowledge, assumptions, and pig-headedness pretending to be backed up by science: Tegnell or Trump, for instance.
When I (or even Gavin) quote the number of cases in Sweden and elsewhere, it is something we know, but it is very important to stress what the number of cases means, i.e. the number of people who have been tested positive, and not the number of people who have actually been infected, i.e. the number of people tested positive for the virus + the dark number. The existence of the dark number again is something that we know. We just don't know how big it is, but we can make assumptions based on the percentage of people who have the virus when we make random tests, and the similar percentage of people who turn out to have been infected when we test for antibodies.

So as always, we should be aware of what we know, what we have good reason to assume, and what we don't know at all. There is very little of the latter in the case of the coronavirus at this point.
And this is something that you should pay attention to since manipulators like Tegnell and Giesecke use people's general inability to distinguish between these differences to trick them:

Tegnell: ”Ska man ha munskydd ska det baseras på vetenskap” Fyra av tio är för munskydd (Aftonbladet.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Tegnell: "If we are to wear face masks, it should be based on science" - Four of ten (Swedes) are in favor of face masks

Tegnell has no reason whatsoever to imagine that face masks don't work. He now feels threatened because people no longer trust and obey him blindly; they've been ignorant, but they are not all idiots, and they can see what is going on in the rest of the world and compare to Sweden. With his pig-headed pride and arrogance, he has been the cause of thousands of deaths throughout this pandemic, and unlike Trump he won't simply disappear, like magic, in November.
His appeal to (alleged) science is nothing but an appeal to himself as a false authority.
It is reason for optimism that people in Sweden are beginning to wake up and realize this:

Även denna tisdag skriker coronademonstranterna åt Tegnell: ”Tänker stå här tills politiker och tjänstemän tar sitt förnuft till fånga och bestämmer att vi alla ska bära munskydd när vi rör oss bland andra” (Aftonbladet.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Even this Tuesday, corona protesters are screaming at Tegnell: "We intend to stay here until politicians and civil servants come to their senses and decree that we should all wear face masks when we are among other people

The media are informing their readers about face masks:
Guide: Allt du behöver veta om munskydd (Aftonbladet)
Guide: Everything you need to know about face masks

And the protesters are not alone:
Lars Calmfors och Göran K Hansson: Nu krävs ett omtag där effektiva åtgärder sätts in för att skydda befolkningen.
Covid-19 har inneburit en nationell katastrof för Sverige. Långsamt och otillräckligt agerande har troligen bidragit till detta. Och medicinare upplever att Folkhälsomyndigheten inte omprövar när ny information tillkommer.
”Låt inte prestige hindra en omprövning av coronastrategin” (DagensNyheter.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Lars Calmfors and Göran K Hansson: What we need now is a turnaround where effective measures are put in place to protect the population.
Covid-19 has meant a national disaster for Sweden. Slow and insufficient action has probably contributed to this. And doctors have experienced that the Public Health Agency does not reconsider when new information appears. "Don't let prestige prevent a reconsideration of the corona strategy" But with Tegnell in charge, there is reason to believe that reconsideration based on new facts and knowledge will be impossible. Again much like Trump, he isn't very good at handling any kind of change. He considers it to be a strength that he remains steadfast in his promotion of a failed strategy, and he hates it when other countries actually learn something new and adapt their pandemic response to the new facts: Tegnell: ”Förvirrande när länder ändrar regler fram och tillbaka (DagensNyheter.se, Aug. 11, 2020) Tegnell: "It's confusing when countries change their rules and regulations back and forth." No, Tegnell, you poor thing! It's confusing when you present the useless Swedish number of cases to argue that other countries should open up their borders to your compatriots. That they change their policies when they discover that the spread of infection in Sweden is higher than they thought is not confusing at all. It's inconvenient for your attempt to present the Swedish strategy as successful, that's all it is.
 
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No, you aren't "merely trying to keep the subject factual", but if you do so, we can go on.
And never say that we don't know anything when we actually do. It's one of the favourite arguments of the superstitious: 'Science doesn't know everything. It has been wrong before, and maybe some day it will prove that astrology was right the whole time.'

In particular in the current situation, it is important to distinguish between actual knowledge, assumptions, and pig-headedness pretending to be backed up by science: Tegnell or Trump, for instance.
When I (or even Gavin) quote the number of cases in Sweden and elsewhere, it is something we know, but it is very important to stress what the number of cases means, i.e. the number of people who have been tested positive, and not the number of people who have actually been infected, i.e. the number of people tested positive for the virus + the dark number. The existence of the dark number again is something that we know. We just don't know how big it is, but we can make assumptions based on the percentage of people who have the virus when we make random tests, and the similar percentage of people who turn out to have been infected when we test for antibodies.

So as always, we should be aware of what we know, what we have good reason to assume, and what we don't know at all. There is very little of the latter in the case of the coronavirus at this point.
And this is something that you should pay attention to since manipulators like Tegnell and Giesecke use people's general inability to distinguish between these differences to trick them:

Tegnell: ”Ska man ha munskydd ska det baseras på vetenskap” Fyra av tio är för munskydd (Aftonbladet.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Tegnell: "If we are to wear face masks, it should be based on science" - Four of ten (Swedes) are in favor of face masks

Tegnell has no reason whatsoever to imagine that face masks don't work. He now feels threatened because people no longer trust and obey him blindly; they've been ignorant, but they are not all idiots, and they can see what is going on in the rest of the world and compare to Sweden. With his pig-headed pride and arrogance, he has been the cause of thousands of deaths throughout this pandemic, and unlike Trump he won't simply disappear, like magic, in November.
His appeal to (alleged) science is nothing but an appeal to himself as a false authority.
It is reason for optimism that people in Sweden are beginning to wake up and realize this:

Även denna tisdag skriker coronademonstranterna åt Tegnell: ”Tänker stå här tills politiker och tjänstemän tar sitt förnuft till fånga och bestämmer att vi alla ska bära munskydd när vi rör oss bland andra” (Aftonbladet.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Even this Tuesday, corona protesters are screaming at Tegnell: "We intend to stay here until politicians and civil servants come to their senses and decree that we should all wear face masks when we are among other people

The media are informing their readers about face masks:
Guide: Allt du behöver veta om munskydd (Aftonbladet)
Guide: Everything you need to know about face masks

And the protesters are not alone:

Lars Calmfors and Göran K Hansson: What we need now is a turnaround where effective measures are put in place to protect the population.
Covid-19 has meant a national disaster for Sweden. Slow and insufficient action has probably contributed to this. And doctors have experienced that the Public Health Agency does not reconsider when new information appears. "Don't let prestige prevent a reconsideration of the corona strategy" But with Tegnell in charge, there is reason to believe that reconsideration based on new facts and knowledge will be impossible. Again much like Trump, he isn't very good at handling any kind of change. He considers it to be a strength that he remains steadfast in his promotion of a failed strategy, and he hates it when other countries actually learn something new and adapt their pandemic response to the new facts: Tegnell: ”Förvirrande när länder ändrar regler fram och tillbaka (DagensNyheter.se, Aug. 11, 2020) Tegnell: "It's confusing when countries change their rules and regulations back and forth." No, Tegnell, you poor thing! It's confusing when you present the useless Swedish number of cases to argue that other countries should open up their borders to your compatriots. That they change their policies when they discover that the spread of infection in Sweden is higher than they thought is not confusing at all. It's inconvenient for your attempt to present the Swedish strategy as successful, that's all it is.
You have already said things that are false/misleading/irrelevant. I make my decisions based upon proof or an abundance of clues that are agreed upon by broad appraisal. You are ignoring decisions made by people with greater knowledge. You’re just guessing.
 
The dark number. If that's original, then that's nicely done. Regardless, it's a neat term, and I'm so going to appropriate it.
 
The fact that your investment is likely to do a lot better in the medium to long term is relatively few people die and your country isn't massively disrupted by widespread serious illness seems to have escaped most of these people. A short (or even a longer) closure to get rid of the virus at the beginning is vastly preferable to a cycle of repeated opening and closure, and many customers staying away because they know the virus us out there.

The fact that a bit of money spent in the early stages supporting people who can't work due to the lockdown, or who have to isolate for public health reasons, will save a fortune compared to the later effects of mass redundancies and poverty, and indeed the effect of infectious people going out to drive their taxi or deliver their parcels rather than isolating, is also lost on many governments.



Mass redundancies, poverty, and significant numbers of people who have been maimed by the virus and now have long term health problems, which is an economic as well as a humane problem
 
You have already said things that are false/misleading/irrelevant. I make my decisions based upon proof or an abundance of clues that are agreed upon by broad appraisal. You are ignoring decisions made by people with greater knowledge. You’re just guessing.


I've made no false or misleading claims, but I can see why you would find what I've written irrelevant.
Sweden's failed strategy was no doubt "agreed upon by broad appraisal", but Swedes were misled to think that it was backed up by actual science because Tegnell pretended to be an actual scientist. I don't ignore decisions made by people with greater knowledge, but that's what Swedes tend to say whenever Tegnell is criticized.
If I am guessing, then I say so, unlike you. There is a big difference between qualified guessing and denying reality, which seems to be what you are inclined to do when you claim that, on the one hand, we don't know anything, and yet, on the other hand, you state that you make your decisions "based upon proof." That is very difficult to do when you don't know anything ...
 

111 new cases since yesterday, 44 of them in Aarhus
(DR.dk, Aug. 12, 2020) - For the first time nobody is on ventilators, and it’s not because the last two died. There are no new deaths. In spite of this, local politicians won’t cancel the annual festival week beginning on Aug. 28. Researchers warn against it, obviously:

Politikere vil gennemføre Aarhus festuge, der besøges af op mod 500,000 (TV2.dk, Aug. 12, 2020)
Politicians want to go through with Aarhus festival week, which is visited by as many as 500,000

Det aarhusianske kontakttal er tæt på marts-nivesu (DR.dk, Aug. 11, 2020)
The R0 in Aarhus is close to the level in March

Norge fraråder rejser til danske regioner (DR.dk, Aug. 12, 2020)
Norway advises against going to Danish regions - the two regions Midtjylland (with Aarhus) and Sjælland (with Ringsted), i.e. Zealand outside of Copenhagen. Also six regions in Sweden and six new countries. I’m surprised to see that Iceland is one of them.

Venstre vil tvangsindlægge corona-smittede som bryder karantænen (DR.dk, Aug. 12, 2020)
The party Venstre wants to commit people with corona who break the quarantine - There are no indications that anybody does that, but now that it’s come out that many immigrants are infected, the party seems to think that it’s a good idea to make it seem as if immigrants have caused the new clusters and aren’t primarily the victims of them. I don't remember Venstre complaining about ski tourists back in February and March when it would have been a good idea to do so.
 
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It will include (probably a lot of) people who died of covid, just a few days after the 28-day cut-off. It's not all people who made a full recovery and then were hit by a bus.
 
I feared that you wouldn't get the point, and you didn't. Why do you think I mentioned the number of infections in Stockholm according to the Swedish doctor in the context of your 82,323 cases? Since you have confidence in the Swedish doctor, you should compare the number of infections based on his idea of 50 percent of the inhabitants of Stockholm having had the virus, with Sweden's 82,323 confirmed cases. It doesn't really add up, does it?!
There is nothing to get you have provided no date once again they flattened the curve with out ever having a lockdown it was the main point the doctor made


Again you don't consider that these numbers are totally unreliable unless you consider that Sweden didn't really start testing anybody until the school year was over. Until then, only people being hospitalized (and maybe staff) stood a chance of getting tested, and since children in general are less likely than adults to get severe symptoms "the number of laboratory confirmed cases" in Sweden is ******* useless!
Do you have stats one every one tested as well as age



Denmark only had what on voluntary basis??? I am aware that Denmark has had far fewer cases than Sweden; far fewer, actually, than you can only dream of since Sweden only started testing very recently and therefore doesn't have any reliable numbers from the time when the virus peaked in the country.

Total tests - Tests per million:
#12 Denmark Total: 1,755,433; per million: 302,948
#53 Sweden Total: 863,315; per million 85,424
I found no dates on when Sweden started testing are what this has to do with Denmark’s voluntary basis so far you provided nothing but personal opinions

50219519736_e764eed3c7_c_d.jpg
 
Sweden did NOT flatten their curve, it peaked much higher than that of countries which had a lockdown. Their policy was specifically NOT to flatten the curve, but to go for herd immunity.
 
...... I found no dates on when Sweden started testing are what this has to do with Denmark’s voluntary basis so far you provided nothing but personal opinions

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50219519736_e764eed3c7_c_d.jpg[/qimg]
An interesting graph. Are you (or the graph) saying that these are the total deaths regardless of cause?
 
Sweden did NOT flatten their curve, it peaked much higher than that of countries which had a lockdown. Their policy was specifically NOT to flatten the curve, but to go for herd immunity.


No, no, Sweden actually tried to flatten the curve until their idea of herd immunity had been achieved: The idea was that the vast majority of people had to get infected, that there was no way around it, so you might as well do nothing to prevent everybody from getting infected, but you should try to flatten the curve, so the hospitals weren't overwhelmed by a sudden number of Covid-19-sick people that they couldn't possible handle all at once. So by flattening the curve, they wouldn't try to prevent people from getting infected. They would merely prevent almost everybody from getting it at the same time.

The exception this 'strategy' was that old people should be protected while the rest of the population got infected and thus achieved a hypothetical level of immunity.

As we have seen, Sweden did manage to flatten the curve a little, but not nearly enough to prevent the hospital system from becoming overwhelmed; cf. long-distance triage and palliative care, i.e. opiates, I assume. And Sweden also succeeded in having so many people infected in the capital that it is not at all unlikely that Stockholm's R0 will have been lowered considerably at this point due to the subsequent immunity, whether permanent or temporary, but it is really hard to tell if that's the case, and it probably also depends on the respective neighborhoods you live in since poor neighborhoods in Stockholm with many immigrants had an awful lot of cases, whereas affluent neighborhoods didn't, so they also can't have many people with infection-induced immunity.

And many small communities in the rest of the country probably never had the number of cases that they had in Stockholm, so even the level of partial immunity in the country is probably not equally distributed, i.e. high level in Stockholm and other places with a high death toll, lower in areas with a low death toll.
 
There is nothing to get you have provided no date once again they flattened the curve with out ever having a lockdown it was the main point the doctor made


Do you have stats one every one tested as well as age

I found no dates on when Sweden started testing are what this has to do with Denmark’s voluntary basis so far you provided nothing but personal opinions


Do any of you have any idea what he is talking about? It seems to be impossible for him to understand that the number of cases in Sweden is very different from the number of people in Stockholm that his Swedish doctor thinks have achieved immunity by having had the infection.

He also seems to think that flattening the curve in itself is a good thing, i.e. having as many people as possible (except the old ones) get infected, but prolonging the process by slowing down the spread.
That the explicit purpose of this strategy was to prevent the health-care system from being overwhelmed and the 70+-year-olds from getting infected and thus dying, and that neither of these two goals were met, doesn't seem to concern him.

I find this flattening-the-curve fetichism really annoying.
 
It will include (probably a lot of) people who died of covid, just a few days after the 28-day cut-off. It's not all people who made a full recovery and then were hit by a bus.


I guess this also means that people who have suffered serious long-term damage to the lungs from having had Covid-19 won't be considered to have died from Covid the next time they catch a cold and get pneumonia.
 
Wednesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Aug. 12, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 571 (5,774) 329* 33 *according to SVT.se.
Denmark: 107 (621) 111 1
Finland: 60 (333) 19 1
Norway: 47 (256) 22 2
Iceland: 29 (10) 4 1
Iceland has 115 active cases, Faroe Islands 114, New Zealand 26.
The Faroe Island have 900+ in quarantine, 1,085 awaiting results from tests.

The school year in Denmark only just started, but ...
Flere gymnasier sender klasser hjem efter positive prøver (TV2.dk, Aug. 12, 2020 – 15.44)
Several high schools send their students home after being tested positive
 
Do any of you have any idea what he is talking about? It seems to be impossible for him to understand that the number of cases in Sweden is very different from the number of people in Stockholm that his Swedish doctor thinks have achieved immunity by having had the infection.

He also seems to think that flattening the curve in itself is a good thing, i.e. having as many people as possible (except the old ones) get infected, but prolonging the process by slowing down the spread.
That the explicit purpose of this strategy was to prevent the health-care system from being overwhelmed and the 70+-year-olds from getting infected and thus dying, and that neither of these two goals were met, doesn't seem to concern him.

I find this flattening-the-curve fetichism really annoying.


Still pushing the fact that .05 perfect of their people died of covid yes some countries had more some less
 
(Snip)
[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50219519736_e764eed3c7_c_d.jpg[/qimg]

I’m not certain what your intent was to provide this graph but you do realize the 2020 numbers only go through the end of July? So the deaths by the end of the year project to over 101,000, which is spectacularly higher than any of the prior, non-COVID years.

I wonder what might be responsible for these excess deaths...
 
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Still pushing the fact that .05 perfect of their people died of covid yes some countries had more some less

Even better than expressing this vaguely as “some countries had more some less” are more mathematically useful methods of comparison, deaths per million for example. Oh look, Dann has been providing just those numbers. And what do you know? Sweden is many fold worse than the obvious, most relevant comparison countries.
 
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