Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Rolfe]

So only the people who are affected by a policy should have a say in it? Do you know how idiotic such a principle would be, and how insane it would be to apply?

Do I ask for a vote in your elections?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I would humbly suggest that things like women's shelter are just a pretextual wedge issue for the TERFs who really just don't like the idea of trans women being considered "real" like cis women.

I would humbly suggest that maybe you should try to listen to women, both cis and trans, and maybe get a feel for some of the actual issues rather than just labeling people and then assigning them malice so you don't have to deal with what they actually say.

 

[Rolfe]

Hey, thanks for telling me in advance that your evidence won't pass muster.

Seriously, maybe you've done that, and maybe others have seen it. I haven't. I genuinely asked you for numbers, and you act as if the very idea is insulting. If you can't be bothered, why even mention it?

No, I'm just tired of the amnesia in this thread. Why don't you look it up for yourself if you're genuinely interested?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I wish people in this thread wouldn't misgender people. It's lazy, insulting, and dismissive. And it is a factor in driving people to suicide, as well as well as just generally contributing to the discrimination against one of the most discriminated against groups in the world.

Who has misgendered someone?

 

[Meadmaker]

Who has misgendered someone?

Not to speak for Squeegee, but I'm pretty sure I have. There are some people, like Yaniv, who I won't call women, and in my recent post I put "girls" in quotes, and I talked about "him" for the bearded GLT person.

That's misgendering, or so Im told.


I also say that transwomen are male, and transmen female, but I'll go along with their preference for most cases. I think a lot of people would say that's misgendering, too.

 

[Emily's Cat]

TERFs.

Not everyone who advocates against self-ID, or who says that trans-women are not women, is a radical feminist. I don't think there are many radical feminists participating here. I can't think of anyone offhand that I would say is a radical feminist.

What's up with the TERF thing?

There aren't any radical feminists participating in this thread. None. The TERF thing is nothing more than well-poisoning via ad-hom.

Now... if we want to go ahead and redefine things... I would be okay with being called a "Trans-Encouraging Rational Female".

 

[Emily's Cat]

TERF isn't a slur. It's a shorthand for a ideological position. It's not more an insult than calling a creationist a creationist, or calling a white supremacist a white supremacist.

There is a lot of animus directed towards TERFs (rightly so in my opinion), but the term itself is not derogatory when applied to trans-exclusionists.

It is absolutely a slur when it's being used against people who are not at all anti-trans, not at all bigoted, and not at all radical... and when it's primary goal is to label someone as evil and poison the well with it.

 

[Belz...]

Do I ask for a vote in your elections?

What a stupid question. You're not part of my community are you? By your logic, if a policy affects 900 people in the US, only those 900 people should be able to vote on it, and the remaining 350 million Americans are just going to have to live with the decision.

No, I'm just tired of the amnesia in this thread.

Forget the other posters. _I_ asked you a question.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ahh yes, being trans in high school, a notably fun and easy social experience that people will endure for malicious purposes.

If there's one thing everyone knows about teenagers, they are very chill and polite to other teenagers about sensitive topics such as sexuality and gender presentation.

Did you even read Joe's post at all?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sure, and the question is, do trans women count as "human females".

Alrighty. If you want to pin your hat on this, and say that transwomen count as human females, you're going to have to define 'female' in a way that makes sense and is not completely self-referential. It might help if you define 'woman' while you're at it.

 

[theprestige]

Depends whether the policy affects them in any way. If it doesn't, then no.

Public spaces set aside for women. Men should have a say.

Taxes raised to benefit women. Men should have a say.

Private businesses constrained on behalf of women. Men should have a say.

I think that about covers it. Obviously if you want to have a girls' night in, men shouldn't have a say in that.

Is that more or less what you had in mind?

 

[theprestige]

Hey, thanks for telling me in advance that your evidence won't pass muster.

That's uncalled for. People around here do have a bad habit of using ad homs to dodge valid citations.

 

[Belz...]

Alrighty. If you want to pin your hat on this, and say that transwomen count as human females, you're going to have to define 'female' in a way that makes sense and is not completely self-referential. It might help if you define 'woman' while you're at it.

Good luck. I've asked him three times to define "female" and he ignored me while answering my other points. He clearly doesn't think he can do it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

In every way that matters for ordinary social circumstances.

Can you expand on this? What do you consider to be ordinary social circumstances? What do you consider to be outside of that definition? Where to middle school locker rooms fall? Domestic violence and rape shelters? Prisons? Sports competitions? What about as an employee in a strip club? Where does it fall in terms of dating? Lesbian sexual interactions?

 

[theprestige]

What a stupid question. You're not part of my community are you? By your logic, if a policy affects 900 people in the US, only those 900 people should be able to vote on it, and the remaining 350 million Americans are just going to have to live with the decision.

... I kind of resemble that remark, tho. :-D

 

[Belz...]

That's uncalled for. People around here do have a bad habit of using ad homs to dodge valid citations.

It was completely called for. If you can't be bothered to repeat yourself, that's one thing. But to justify it by preemptively deciding that the other person isn't going to read it or consider it is an excuse, and I get to decide what the other person's real motives are just as they do mine.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You do understand that women go to these places to pee, change and shower, right? They can still meet wherever they want. You're overselling your point there.

You make it seem as though women are in a constant fight-or-flight scenario while men are strolling through life without a care.

Um... where else would we go? Should we ask for help getting a blood stain out of the back of our pants in the cafeteria line? If we're getting aggressively hit on by a dude at a bar are we suppose to just leave the bar altogether instead of heading to the restroom with a friend to avoid him for a bit?

Sure, maybe Rolfe is overselling it a bit... but there really aren't that many places that females can go and be assured that we are not in the presence of males. Our own private homes (and sometimes not even there), restrooms, locker rooms. Women interact a lot more in those private spaces than I understand men do. And we interact in ways that are often a lot more vulnerable (both physically and emotionally) than we do when we're in the presence of males.

To Zig's point, I think there's some reasonable accommodation that can be made for transwomen who have transitioned. Personally, I'm okay with transwomen who haven't surgically transitioned when they have clearly made an effort to present as a woman. Just some basic common sense is what I ask. If most other people are going to assume that you're a man based on how you look, go to the men's. If most people are going to assume you're a woman based on how you look, go to the women's. Don't go waggling around your wedding tackle or melon baskets if they're out of place.

Not all women are going to have the same view I do. A lot of women have been assaulted in a lot more extreme ways than I have been. A lot of women are a lot more sensitive to male presences when they're vulnerable than I am.

 

[Rolfe]

I have a friend who had an abusive, alcoholic father. She says that the ladies room was her regular and only means of escape from him. She would run there and he knew he couldn't follow. Mixed-sex lavatories simply end that.

 

[Belz...]

I have a friend who had an abusive, alcoholic father. She says that the ladies room was her regular and only means of escape from him. She would run there and he knew he couldn't follow. Mixed-sex lavatories simply end that.

To be clear: I accept your description of these areas as safe spaces, despite my earlier flippant comments. Those were made as jokes.

In that case my proposed solution may not be optimal. Do you have your own solution to voice?

Um... where else would we go? Should we ask for help getting a blood stain out of the back of our pants in the cafeteria line? If we're getting aggressively hit on by a dude at a bar are we suppose to just leave the bar altogether instead of heading to the restroom with a friend to avoid him for a bit?

Sure, maybe Rolfe is overselling it a bit... but there really aren't that many places that females can go and be assured that we are not in the presence of males. Our own private homes (and sometimes not even there), restrooms, locker rooms. Women interact a lot more in those private spaces than I understand men do. And we interact in ways that are often a lot more vulnerable (both physically and emotionally) than we do when we're in the presence of males.

To Zig's point, I think there's some reasonable accommodation that can be made for transwomen who have transitioned. Personally, I'm okay with transwomen who haven't surgically transitioned when they have clearly made an effort to present as a woman. Just some basic common sense is what I ask. If most other people are going to assume that you're a man based on how you look, go to the men's. If most people are going to assume you're a woman based on how you look, go to the women's. Don't go waggling around your wedding tackle or melon baskets if they're out of place.

Not all women are going to have the same view I do. A lot of women have been assaulted in a lot more extreme ways than I have been. A lot of women are a lot more sensitive to male presences when they're vulnerable than I am.

See above. Yes, she was a bit overselling it, but my later comment about the restaurant was not serious.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I disagree with the underlying principle. Men and women are of equal ethical, moral, and intellectual value. We are all human beings. We are all endowed with empathy and the power to reason in the abstract. We all have an equal stake in the laws and customs that shape our society and our social interactions.

There is no aspect of public policy that we should not expect - require - men to consider and have an opinion about.

If you want to dedicate public space to women, men in society should have a say. If you want to raise taxes for women, men in society should have a say. If you want to constrain private businesses on behalf of women, men should have a say. We live in a society. It's up to guys and gals together. How can it be any other way?

Do you hold the same view with respect to say... abortion? Maternity services? The availability of mammogram services?

Do you also think that white men should have an equal voice in the disposition of grants and services that are targeted at supporting minority communities? Should straight people have an equal voice in how the Pride Parade is run and organized? Or whether or not two people of the same sex should be allowed to get married?