Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[theprestige]

"Any problem on Earth can be solved with the careful application of high explosives."

This raises the question of how many problems in Beirut might have been accidentally solved by the careless application of high explosives.

 

[Ziggurat]

I question the premise that you can have romance without explosions.

Indeed. Die Hard isn't only a Christmas movie.

 

[Belz...]

Indeed. Die Hard isn't only a Christmas movie.

Are we saying that Michael Bay movies are porn?

 

[Joe Random]

Are we saying that Michael Bay movies are porn?

Honest Trailers has described the fight scenes in the Transformers series as 'watching two junkyards doing it'.

 

[lionking]

Of course, one of the things that makes conversation problematic is that the one term "trans-person", is used to encompass everything from self-id only to fully complete surgical transition.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would be willing to treat full surgical transition as their adopted sex for almost any purpose, including occupying a women's shelter. I think most people would. On the other hand, for someone who is pure self ID and not even doing any sort of body or social modification, i.e. like our bearded twitter person a few pages back, I'm not willing to treat that person as a woman for pretty much any purpose at all.

So, should trans women be allowed in women's shelters? In my opinion, it would be best to leave the decision to the discretion of the shelter operator, even in the case of government funded shelters. The male bodied person should not be "entitled" in any sense to access, but the staff should be able to use their discretion. Just my opinion.

My position as well. Self ID alone is a joke when it comes to accessing refuges, change rooms, toilets and sports designated for women.

 

[Rolfe]

Only a tiny fraction of people calling themselves transwomen go for "full surgical transition". Even of the minority who have had some sort of surgery, most of that is accounted for by breast augmentation and facial feminisation surgery. Actual castration, penectomy and construction of a "neovagina" is rare.

In the past, if they thought about it at all, most women assumed that transwomen all had had that surgery. They might have been a bit uncomfortable about the whole thing, but considering what distress it must take to impel someone to do that to themselves, and that a man without a dick and balls isn't actually much of a threat anyway, most were prepared to grant courtesy status and not make an issue of it.

Now it is becoming much more widely known that nearly all transwomen are sexually intact, and indeed are heterosexual, and that there is no requirement even for a diagnosis of dysphoria never mind any intention to have surgery, quite a lot of re-evaluation is happening.

I think given all that's taken place over the past few years it's going to be difficult to go back. First, the fully-intact, no physical transition transwomen have captured the narrative, insisting that they're as "valid" as anyone else and it's cruel to compel them to have surgery in order to be their authentic selves, and besides they can't afford it. Many institutions have swallowed this hook, line, sinker and rowboat. We're told that there should be no gatekeeping and no qualifying requirements for trans status other than the person's own say-so, and this is followed up by snotty remarks about genital inspections to get into the ladies'. These people are powerful and they're not going to submit to any legislation that insists only the eunuchs are allowed to share women's spaces.

Second, women are now re-evaluating and in many cases regretting their previous "be kind" attitude. You can't unlearn the knowledge that 90% of these males in dresses and makeup that you assumed had all had surgery are in fact the possessors of a full set of male tackle. Genital inspections are really not an answer. If any category of "man" is allowed into female spaces, then by extension they're all allowed. We can't tell just by looking which are the 10% or so that have had sirgery. And we're now assuming that any one we see is unlikely to have had surgery. We also understand a lot more about the motivations for wanting to be in female spaces and we don't like what we've learned.

There's a madness around where people on a so-called sceptics forum declare that biological sex isn't real, that feelings in a man's head make him biologically female, and that if you just reduce testosterone a wee bit, temporarily, it's fine to let Novak Djokovic play in the Ladies' Singles. It won't last, and by the end of it women are going to be more protective of their spaces, not less.

 

[lionking]

In relation to professional sports, it isn’t a group of matronly TERFs vehemently opposing self identified trans women competing with biological females, it’s the female competitors themselves. Those who have dedicated years to getting to the top of their sport only to get blown away by biological males who have transitioned in often marginal ways.

Testosterone testing happens in some sports, but is hardly universal.

 

[Belz...]

Honest Trailers has described the fight scenes in the Transformers series as 'watching two junkyards doing it'.

That's pretty damned accurate.

 

[Belz...]

Only a tiny fraction of people calling themselves transwomen go for "full surgical transition". Even of the minority who have had some sort of surgery, most of that is accounted for by breast augmentation and facial feminisation surgery. Actual castration, penectomy and construction of a "neovagina" is rare.

Again, do we have actual numbers for this? You didn't answer my previous request.

 

[Rolfe]

In relation to professional sports, it isn’t a group of matronly TERFs vehemently opposing self identified trans women competing with biological females, it’s the female competitors themselves. Those who have dedicated years to getting to the top of their sport only to get blown away by biological males who have transitioned in often marginal ways.

Testosterone testing happens in some sports, but is hardly universal.

It's a travesty anyway. Testosterone is extremely labile. People have taken serial blood samples from animals being castrated and after half an hour or so that's kind of the end of it. The hormone is pumped out by the testes all day and night in pulses, the exact pattern varying by species. It's quite a smooth wave in the stallion but in the bull there are multiple peaks during the day.

A man could allow himself to have normal testosterone secretion most of the time, and only take the suppressing medication when a comptition was about to happen, or when a test was imminent. I don't know how often they test them, but I don't think they're dragging them out of Sunday lunch for a surprise test like they do to the tennis players.

The diurnal variation also makes these spot concentrations pretty meaningless. I know the human pattern is supposed to be well understood, even in 1977 when we did a project on this in biochemistry class the men in the class were asked to do their fingerprick blood sample at a set time of day, but I'll bet this can be manipulated. (Yes, the women were taking their temperatures the moment they woke up and peeing into pots, why do you ask?)

So when some musclebound hulk in a gym slip insists that his teststerone has been reduced to under 10 nmol/l, I laugh hollowly and wonder when, and for how long. Even before I remark that that's a male concentration anyway, females are a tenth of that.

 

[Rolfe]

Again, do we have actual numbers for this? You didn't answer my previous request.

Yes, it's all over the internet.

 

[Belz...]

Yes, it's all over the internet.

Rolfe when you ask someone to support their claim do you expect to do the legwork for them?

If I go looking and I find that I cannot find evidence that supports you, then what? Wouldn't it be easier for you to just show us what you've got? I don't think I'm being unreasonable here; I really don't know what the answer is.

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah, whatever. Done that. Several times. "Oh noes that's a transphobic hate site" (which is quoting sourced statistics) " not even going to read it!"

 

[theprestige]

Yes, it's all over the internet.

Now that that's out of the way, will you tell us whether you think men should not have a say in public policy regarding safe spaces for women?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Then you would do better to read what I write, rather than imposing your own meaning on what I write.

You don't explain yourself nearly as well as you seem to think you do. I've lost track of the number of times I've asked you to elaborate or expand on something you've posted, and only gotten some brush-off in response.

Then again, I forgot, you're the person who still hasn't retracted your accusation that I don't care about cis women being raped because I voiced the option that I care about trans women being raped.

Nah, you just don't read my very well. I've nothing to retract:

As for the rest of it, I don't think you don't care about women being raped. I do, however, think that you care less about cis-women being raped in prison than about transwomen being raped in prison.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Remember when earlier in the thread I shared a piece of research which indicated that the people who run women's shelters are and have been admitting trans women on self-identification alone for years, and that both they and the cis women in the shelters were welcoming and supportive of this? I guess not. Or you have some more compelling research that contradicts it.

Remember earlier when I said I thought you were reading more into that than might be there, and that there's very likely to be a lot of consideration for transwomen who make an effort to look like women as opposed to looking like men? Remember that part where I said if 6' person showed up with a muscular manly built, a full beard, a deep voice, and dressed in men's clothing and on their claim alone wanted to enter the shelter as a transwoman, there'd likely be some additional discussion involved?

Maybe you don't, seeing as you never bothered to reply to it and pretty much just act as if there's no difference at all between people who self-identify AND make an effort to pass versus people who self-identify and do nothing else at all...

 

[Rolfe]

Now that that's out of the way, will you tell us whether you think men should not have a say in public policy regarding safe spaces for women?

Depends whether the policy affects them in any way. If it doesn't, then no.

 

[Belz...]

Yeah, whatever. Done that. Several times. "Oh noes that's a transphobic hate site" (which is quoting sourced statistics) " not even going to read it!"

Hey, thanks for telling me in advance that your evidence won't pass muster.

Seriously, maybe you've done that, and maybe others have seen it. I haven't. I genuinely asked you for numbers, and you act as if the very idea is insulting. If you can't be bothered, why even mention it?

 

[Belz...]

Depends whether the policy affects them in any way. If it doesn't, then no.

So only the people who are affected by a policy should have a say in it? Do you know how idiotic such a principle would be, and how insane it would be to apply?

 

[Meadmaker]

In relation to professional sports, it isn’t a group of matronly TERFs vehemently opposing self identified trans women competing with biological females, it’s the female competitors themselves. Those who have dedicated years to getting to the top of their sport only to get blown away by biological males who have transitioned in often marginal ways.

Testosterone testing happens in some sports, but is hardly universal.

Not to mention competitive amateur sports, i.e. school sports.

Because of COVID-19, the state of Connecticut was deprived of a new state record for the girls' 100 meter dash this year as the junior "girls" who broke the record their freshman year and again their sophomore year would have undoubtedly broken it again.