Cont: The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

[Stacyhs]

This seems to insinuate they teach because they have no choice. This is WRONG.

I am personal friends with most of our teachers- even ones that have since left the school or retired. (they do have health ins. and retirement plan). Most have been with our school for 10+ years and believe in our program. (Our teacher has been there 30 years!) It is more of a vocation than a 'job'. Almost all of the newer ones switched from public schools for a better teaching environment. Kids that have learning disabilities do so great! (mainly because each kid is able to work at their own pace to master a skill- they are not left behind and the class is not slowed down)
All the teachers I have communicated with could not wait to get back to having the kids back on campus back in June. They arent even required to teach in the summer. Each teacher teaches the same students for 3 years so we all become like family after a while. We all paid in during the lockdown to keep the staff there.

It is a different culture.
There are things more valuable than 'more money'. My Catholic school teachers said the same thing waaaay back when.

It depends on what type of private school you're talking about. The fancy, expensive private schools that celebrities', millionaires' and politicians' kids go to or the much less expensive private schools that middle class parents struggle to send their kids to because their local public schools are crap or because their child is struggling in public school. Those schools do not have retirement plans for their teachers. When I taught in a private school (and I did have a teaching credential) we were not offered health insurance or a retirement option.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

But that isnt the reason 'they' give for not opening. The Union wants things...as they always do. The kids are secondary to the perks of the teachers.

What does the union want?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I am not saying it is the teachers...I am accusing the Teacher's Union - the political arm of that profession in my state.

I think most public teachers also want to get back in the classroom with their kids...but they can't. It is the leadership that sets the tone and is accountable.

Have any citation for that?

There is legitimate concern with teachers that returning to school will result in avoidable death and illness due to covid.

I know of several examples in which teachers are considering accepting early retirement (late 50's, early 60's) in order to avoid exposing themselves to a potentially fatal disease. My mother in law is one such case, she's a school librarian. She is several years shy of being fully vested in her pension, but she's also caring for her 80 year old mother and doesn't think it's worth it to risk killing her with covid.

Many states don't have teacher's unions. Assuming the "reopen or die trying" strategy goes forward, we're about to get a natural experiment in what happens. I expect some scared teachers will quit rather than be marched into the funeral pyre, and it will disproportionately be the more elderly and experienced teachers that are hard to replace.

I'm curious how much of an appetite for hospitalized and dead children these Reopen advocates really have. We'll find out, I suspect.

I also think attitudes vary based on location. Some areas really aren't experiencing the same level of danger from covid as others.

 

[Giordano]

This seems to insinuate they teach because they have no choice. This is WRONG.

I am personal friends with most of our teachers- even ones that have since left the school or retired. (they do have health ins. and retirement plan). Most have been with our school for 10+ years and believe in our program. (Our teacher has been there 30 years!) It is more of a vocation than a 'job'. Almost all of the newer ones switched from public schools for a better teaching environment. Kids that have learning disabilities do so great! (mainly because each kid is able to work at their own pace to master a skill- they are not left behind and the class is not slowed down)
All the teachers I have communicated with could not wait to get back to having the kids back on campus back in June. They arent even required to teach in the summer. Each teacher teaches the same students for 3 years so we all become like family after a while. We all paid in during the lockdown to keep the staff there.

It is a different culture.
There are things more valuable than 'more money'. My Catholic school teachers said the same thing waaaay back when.

You justifiably laude the teachers in your school system. In common with most of the teachers I’ve had the privilege to know they are dedicated to their students, love their profession, altruistic, and work more for love rather than money. Wonderful.

But it is not a plus that society pays so many of them so poorly. It is not a feature. It is an embarrassment and an outrage. Just because it is possible to find such dedicated individuals it doesn’t mean that it is right to short change them as we often do. Many teaching positions do not offer a livable wage without some form of supplemental income (typically that provided from a spouse working at a fairly compensated job). If we respect them appropriately... if we depend on them to do one of the most important jobs in society, educate our young... then let’s laude them in more than words and smiles. Let’s give them a livable salary commensurate with their professionalism. For god’s sake let’s stop exploiting their good graces!

 

[Babbylonian]

I am not saying it is the teachers...I am accusing the Teacher's Union - the political arm of that profession in my state.

I think most public teachers also want to get back in the classroom with their kids...but they can't. It is the leadership that sets the tone and is accountable.

I know that in the United States, thanks to anti-union forces demonizing labor unions, people have become confused about how unions work, so I'll explain a key element to you: They are not run by evil anti-capitalists trying to destroy America; they are run by their members.

 

[ponderingturtle]

But it is not a plus that society pays so many of them so poorly. It is not a feature. It is an embarrassment and an outrage

This shows a failure to understand the necessities of capitalism. Poverty is a design intent and that makes it a feature not a bug. I mean they needed to get people off their farms and into working factories and that requires and underclass. That is a basic part of our capitalist society.

To suggest changing that is heresy.

 

[Sherkeu]

What does the union want?

Basically?...

No cuts, no layoffs, more funding (they specifically say 'more revenues').

They have actually had all three, but say it is still not enough so they want Newsom to get more state and federal revenues to help with more resources.

Some districts with low case numbers are opening this month. California is a big place with millions of students so it is a county by county decision. The CTA, the overall Union, has not been in favor of ANY openings until the State provides proof it is safe. (which of course they cannot...there is risk for any choice. Even one death would be used as evidence to close it all down).

I'm not sure how much they want but whatever it is, he should just give it to them. The long term costs are too great.

 

[Sherkeu]

I know that in the United States, thanks to anti-union forces demonizing labor unions, people have become confused about how unions work, so I'll explain a key element to you: They are not run by evil anti-capitalists trying to destroy America; they are run by their members.

Who said all of that?
Teacher's Unions do what is best for their group. It doesnt include the students. The students do not pay them.
Just like the Police Unions that protect the bad cops because they say if they don't they won't get new recruits. Unions have a place but they can be corrupted for their own goals. One of those goals is to remain needed and stay relevant. Just human nature.

 

[Babbylonian]

Who said all of that?
Teacher's Unions do what is best for their group. It doesnt include the students. The students do not pay them.

Yes, I know, being simplistic is fun!

In this particular case, any teachers' union resisting opening schools because of the danger of spreading a dangerous virus and the disease it causes is protecting both their members and their students, and their member's families and their students' families, and every other person who has to come into contact with those millions of people.

 

[Giordano]

I am not saying it is the teachers...I am accusing the Teacher's Union - the political arm of that profession in my state.

I think most public teachers also want to get back in the classroom with their kids...but they can't. It is the leadership that sets the tone and is accountable.

Oh yes, the bad Teacher’s Union that is looking after the interests of the “evil” teachers, not the “good“ teachers who are eager to sacrifice their very lives so that the parents can get their kids out of their hair at the lowest cost possible.

Do you really believe that teachers are unconcerned as to the threat of covid-19? We know that children carry it at high levels and schools have repeatedly been the epicenters of outbreaks. Would you eagerly wish to place yourself at such a risk even if you are 35 years old? Or perhaps you are 35 but have a 64 year old mother at home with you? Or you are yourself 64?

Even if many teachers feel a need to return to work (likely due to a mix of pressures including need of the income) the schools owe them every, every effort to protect them. If that can be achieved by creative forms of isolation at schools (and I haven’t seen successful examples yet) fine. But it may well take continued distance/on line learning. We can’t say “Well, kids have to return to school and we must take the risk that might spread covid-19 to teachers (and to their families)” Currently it is more of a certainty than a risk. Covid-19 has remained at epidemic levels in the USA because of that type of magical, wishful thinking.

 

[Giordano]

This shows a failure to understand the necessities of capitalism. Poverty is a design intent and that makes it a feature not a bug. I mean they needed to get people off their farms and into working factories and that requires and underclass. That is a basic part of our capitalist society.

To suggest changing that is heresy.

Sorry! Sometimes I forget and I begin to image that we are in the type of society I was taught about in elementary school (after the pledge to the flag). You know: free, just, fair, etc. I discovered the reality over time but sometimes...

 

[Babbylonian]

Oh yes, the bad Teacher’s Union that is looking after the interests of the “evil” teachers, not the “good“ teachers who are eager to sacrifice their very lives so that the parents can get their kids out of their hair at the lowest cost possible.

Do you really believe that teachers are unconcerned as to the threat of covid-19? We know that children carry it at high levels and schools have repeatedly been the epicenters of outbreaks. Would you eagerly wish to place yourself at such a risk even if you are 35 years old? Or perhaps you are 35 but have a 64 year old mother at home with you? Or you are yourself 64?

Even if many teachers feel a need to return to work (likely due to a mix of pressures including need of the income) the schools owe them every, every effort to protect them. If that can be achieved by creative forms of isolation at schools (and I haven’t seen successful examples yet) fine. But it may well take continued distance/on line learning. We can’t say “Well, kids have to return to school and we must take the risk that might spread covid-19 to teachers (and to their families)” Currently it is more of a certainty than a risk. Covid-19 has remained at epidemic levels in the USA because of that type of magical, wishful thinking.

And, just to add some ****-flavored icing to one of the worst-tasting cakes ever, we have governors like Kemp of Georgia who won't even require wearing masks in the schools. I wonder why some teachers (and the unions of which they're members) would balk at voluntarily entering such environments...

 

[Sherkeu]

Oh yes, the bad Teacher’s Union that is looking after the interests of the “evil” teachers, not the “good“ teachers who are eager to sacrifice their very lives so that the parents can get their kids out of their hair at the lowest cost possible.

Do you really believe that teachers are unconcerned as to the threat of covid-19? We know that children carry it at high levels and schools have repeatedly been the epicenters of outbreaks. Would you eagerly wish to place yourself at such a risk even if you are 35 years old? Or perhaps you are 35 but have a 64 year old mother at home with you? Or you are yourself 64?

Even if many teachers feel a need to return to work (likely due to a mix of pressures including need of the income) the schools owe them every, every effort to protect them. If that can be achieved by creative forms of isolation at schools (and I haven’t seen successful examples yet) fine. But it may well take continued distance/on line learning. We can’t say “Well, kids have to return to school and we must take the risk that might spread covid-19 to teachers (and to their families)” Currently it is more of a certainty than a risk. Covid-19 has remained at epidemic levels in the USA because of that type of magical, wishful thinking.

I do not think the Unions are 'evil'. they are doing their job in representing TEACHERS. Not students. I really hate it when my views get 'repackaged' like that with hyperbole. Don't you?

The students and their parents have a high cost in staying home. Not everything is just about Covid-19. It is only a piece of the risk in looking at the situation in total. We will be living with it for a while.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I do not think the Unions are 'evil'. they are doing their job in representing TEACHERS. Not students. I really hate it when my views get 'repackaged' like that with hyperbole. Don't you?

The students and their parents have a high cost in staying home. Not everything is just about Covid-19. It is only a piece of the risk in looking at the situation in total. We will be living with it for a while.

Any demonstrable examples of the teachers' union making decisions that benefit teachers at the expense of students or are we supposed to condemn the union because they theoretically could if they wanted to even though their history shows a great deal of sacrifice for their students and to their own detriment/at their own cost?

 

[rdwight]

I think forcing kids back into school is dumb in many situations, based simply on the actual plans involved. Half a day, half the week, really doesn't make any sense to me. There does seem to be a lot more worry about teachers than most other professions. It is not like we can reduce risk to zero in any job that isn't home based, so why should teachers be special?

If they want all remote learning, let the lay offs begin.. Not really sure why it should cost my town 22k per student for them to use the free Khan Academy/Google Classroom at home and get checked in by their teacher once/twice a week for half an hour in a group.

Maybe their plan will be much better since they've had time to think on it since the school year ended this year, but if it's any variation close to that again it will be hard to justify the costs and employment of a lot of people in the school districts.

 

[Stacyhs]

You justifiably laude the teachers in your school system. In common with most of the teachers I’ve had the privilege to know they are dedicated to their students, love their profession, altruistic, and work more for love rather than money. Wonderful.

But it is not a plus that society pays so many of them so poorly. It is not a feature. It is an embarrassment and an outrage. Just because it is possible to find such dedicated individuals it doesn’t mean that it is right to short change them as we often do. Many teaching positions do not offer a livable wage without some form of supplemental income (typically that provided from a spouse working at a fairly compensated job). If we respect them appropriately... if we depend on them to do one of the most important jobs in society, educate our young... then let’s laude them in more than words and smiles. Let’s give them a livable salary commensurate with their professionalism. For god’s sake let’s stop exploiting their good graces!

Well said. My first teaching job in 1980, having just graduated with a teaching credential from a California State University, paid $800 a month. Before taxes.

 

[Sherkeu]

Any demonstrable examples of the teachers' union making decisions that benefit teachers at the expense of students or are we supposed to condemn the union because they theoretically could if they wanted to even though their history shows a great deal of sacrifice for their students and to their own detriment/at their own cost?

I have no skin in their game actually so they can do what they like. I have never attended public school or sent my kid to one. I still pay my share into it.
But when they try to affect my own private choices, which I pay for to great sacrifice, I cry foul.


California’s elementary-school reopening rules may favor private schools, charters

SACRAMENTO — Elementary schools in California that receive waivers from health officials to reopen in-classroom learning in the coming weeks will most likely be private or charter campuses, educators say — a possibility that teachers unions warn could exacerbate gaps between wealthy children and low-income students enrolled at traditional public schools.

The California Department of Public Health’s new guidelines for how elementary schools can bring students back into classrooms during the coronavirus pandemic put public school districts at a disadvantage, some teachers say.

Then they try to assert that the smaller campus reopenings are a risk to the community but that other schools need more time to meet the guidelines too. (they dont say which communities those are) So which is it? Are Newsom's state guidelines bad? or the schools that meet them earlier bad for reopening?

The argument makes no sense. If a school CAN open, then those kids should be allowed to go to school. Public or private.
What is their point in complaining that smaller schools are able to open first? The schools that adapt first in places with low transmissions, open first. Of course they do.

 

[Babbylonian]

I think forcing kids back into school is dumb in many situations, based simply on the actual plans involved. Half a day, half the week, really doesn't make any sense to me. There does seem to be a lot more worry about teachers than most other professions. It is not like we can reduce risk to zero in any job that isn't home based, so why should teachers be special?

Again, and it's been stated multiple times, we're not only talking about protecting teachers. We're talking about protecting a) every person who might step foot in a school and b) every person who will be exposed to every person who does step foot in a school.

It's unfortunate that teachers are having to step up and say that the situation is incredibly unsafe, bbut the cowardice and callous disregard for human life of our state governments are forcing the issue.

 

[Meadmaker]

I think forcing kids back into school is dumb in many situations, based simply on the actual plans involved. Half a day, half the week, really doesn't make any sense to me. There does seem to be a lot more worry about teachers than most other professions. It is not like we can reduce risk to zero in any job that isn't home based, so why should teachers be special?

If they want all remote learning, let the lay offs begin.. Not really sure why it should cost my town 22k per student for them to use the free Khan Academy/Google Classroom at home and get checked in by their teacher once/twice a week for half an hour in a group.

Maybe their plan will be much better since they've had time to think on it since the school year ended this year, but if it's any variation close to that again it will be hard to justify the costs and employment of a lot of people in the school districts.

The answer to "what's so special about teachers" is just the difficulty of avoiding contact with potentially infected people in a typical school setting compared to many other places of employment.


As for the plan, I know that our local school district is doing their offline learning a lot differently this fall than they did in the spring. Of course in the spring they were caught off guard with no opportunity to prepare. This time they have an actual plan.

What I think will be very interesting will be the effect on higher learning, i.e. college. An awful lot of schools will be all or mostly online for fall semester. I know my kid has one class, a lab, that will meet in person this fall. I think this will greatly accelerate the push for online education. I don't think it's as good as face to face, traditional, instruction, but it is a heck of a lot cheaper. And while I think, overall, that the traditional teaching is better than online instruction, for some students in some subjects, online is as good or better than traditional classroom instruction. I think this pandemic will greatly boost its adoption.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The answer to "what's so special about teachers" is just the difficulty of avoiding contact with potentially infected people in a typical school setting compared to many other places of employment.


As for the plan, I know that our local school district is doing their offline learning a lot differently this fall than they did in the spring. Of course in the spring they were caught off guard with no opportunity to prepare. This time they have an actual plan.

What I think will be very interesting will be the effect on higher learning, i.e. college. An awful lot of schools will be all or mostly online for fall semester. I know my kid has one class, a lab, that will meet in person this fall. I think this will greatly accelerate the push for online education. I don't think it's as good as face to face, traditional, instruction, but it is a heck of a lot cheaper. And while I think, overall, that the traditional teaching is better than online instruction, for some students in some subjects, online is as good or better than traditional classroom instruction. I think this pandemic will greatly boost its adoption.

My wife teaches in college and has taught many in person and online classes. The biggest difference she finds is that online classes demand more involvement from the student, they have to do more than passively show up and pay half attention to the class, but actually log in and participate in discussion groups and so forth. They are not easier or less demanding on the teachers and certainly do not take less work.