Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

[Rolfe]

I read about that. That ship is jinxed. First it wasn't ready in time and friends of mine missed their cruise. Then it was ready and all set to go and a bunch of passengers (including my friends) had their luggage stolen in Santiago on the way to join the ship at Punta Arenas. Now this.

Aren't Norwegians supposed to quarantine at home after coming back from certain countries?

 

[The Don]

I read about that. That ship is jinxed. First it wasn't ready in time and friends of mine missed their cruise. Then it was ready and all set to go and a bunch of passengers (including my friends) had their luggage stolen in Santiago on the way to join the ship at Punta Arenas. Now this.

Aren't Norwegians supposed to quarantine at home after coming back from certain countries?

Sounds like it:

Anyone returning from an international travel outside areas in Schengen/EEA countries with an acceptably low level of infection, must stay in quarantine for 10 days after the date of their return to Norway. This is referred to as travel quarantine.

https://helsenorge.no/koronavirus/travel-advice

 

[dann]

Georgia was the only state on my list with less deaths Stockholm as well as the rest of Sweden has flattened the curve and why he is saying they reached herd immunity I would rather take a locale doctor’s opinion then someone not in the medical field.

I feared that you wouldn't get the point, and you didn't. Why do you think I mentioned the number of infections in Stockholm according to the Swedish doctor in the context of your 82,323 cases? Since you have confidence in the Swedish doctor, you should compare the number of infections based on his idea of 50 percent of the inhabitants of Stockholm having had the virus, with Sweden's 82,323 confirmed cases. It doesn't really add up, does it?!

The report, which has not been peer-reviewed, found that during the period of February 24 to June 14, there were 1,124 confirmed cases of COVID-19 among children in Sweden, around 0.05% of the total number of children aged 1-19.
Finland recorded 584 cases in the same period, also equivalent to around 0.05%.
“In conclusion, (the) closure or not of schools had no measurable direct impact on the number of laboratory confirmed cases in school-aged children in Finland or Sweden,” the agencies said in the report, published last week.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-pandemic-spread-among-children-idUSKCN24G2IS

Again you don't consider that these numbers are totally unreliable unless you consider that Sweden didn't really start testing anybody until the school year was over. Until then, only people being hospitalized (and maybe staff) stood a chance of getting tested, and since children in general are less likely than adults to get severe symptoms "the number of laboratory confirmed cases" in Sweden is ******* useless!

They also flatten curve

https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/2...lly-shows-kids-are-not-spreading-coronavirus/

In fact, the report found that it was extremely rare for children to bring an infection into the home. It found that just 2.7 percent of potential “index cases” (first case in the home) were under age 20. Imagine twisting that into a call for school closures. It’s astonishingly reckless.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/2...lly-shows-kids-are-not-spreading-coronavirus/

I think you should check out where you find the articles to back up your apologetics:

On March 26th, 2020 Twitter locked the site’s account for violating its rules against spreading misinformation about the coronavirus.
(...)
The Federalist has also promoted pseudoscience claiming that there is a link between Abortions and Breast Cancer. According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists there is “no causal relationship between induced abortion and a subsequent increase in breast cancer risk.”
(...)
Overall, we rate The Federalist a borderline Questionable and far Right Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that always favor the right. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the promotion pseudoscience and three failed fact checks. (8/8/2016) Updated (D. Van Zandt 03/30/2020)
The Federalist (Media Bias Fact Check)

Better luck next time.

Denmark only had all on voluntary basis and only had Cases: 14,815 Deaths: 620

Denmark only had what on voluntary basis??? I am aware that Denmark has had far fewer cases than Sweden; far fewer, actually, than you can only dream of since Sweden only started testing very recently and therefore doesn't have any reliable numbers from the time when the virus peaked in the country.

Total tests - Tests per million:
#12 Denmark Total: 1,755,433; per million: 302,948
#53 Sweden Total: 863,315; per million 85,424

there are ways to do so without lockdowns was the whole point and their schools have been opened since the first of June and they have had no problems school closure was the only change from Sweden besides the closed borders

And masks! Don't forget about masks! I am sure that there are more differences than closed schools, closed borders and masks, three things that Tegnell objects to, but there's no reason to go into the details any further than this. It goes to show that Japan took measures that Sweden didn't, and they appear to have made all the difference.

 

[dann]

Aren't Norwegians supposed to quarantine at home after coming back from certain countries?

From most countries, I think, and maybe parts of Denmark, too, in the very near future:
Norsk sundhedsstyrelse: Dele af Danmark bør gøres til ’rødt område’ (DR.dk, Aug. 10, 2020)
Norwegian Public Health Agency: Some regions of Denmark should be changed into ’red areas’


Recent rise in number of cases in Denmark
The majority of new cases in the recent flare ups in Denmark were immigrants or descendants of recent immigrants:
70 procent af de smittede i sidste uge har anden etnisk herkomst end dansk (TV2.dk, Aug. 11, 2020)
70 percent of the cases of infection last week have ethnic backgrounds other than Danish

It is the picture we see all over the world: People who aren't able to work online from home, bus drivers, cab drivers, shop assistants, care workers, maybe in crowded living spaces and dependent on public transport, are the ones who get infected.
But one of the Danish political parties hostile to immigrants, Dansk Folkeparti, is convinced that 'undanish' behaviour at funerals is the problem:

’Rystet’ over smittebombe blandt indvandrere: Vil sætte ind mod begravelser (BT, Aug. 10, 2020)
’Shocked’ by bomb of contagion in the immigrant community: Will do something about funerals

The text makes it fairly obvious that they would like a law specifically about Muslim funerals, but since they can't get that, they'll have to go for one against a certain kind of behaviour at all funerals.
I don't remember them having any objections against the affluent Danes who brought the virus back from their holidays in the Alps, but I could be mistaken about that.
They might also consider PPE and other preventive measures for all frontline workers, Danes as well as those of other ethnicities, but that is probably beyond them.

 

[dann]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the theory (or proven fact) all about those who are immune NOT INFECTING OTHERS?

If you are immune to a disease, you don't have it. If you had it, you won't get again unless the immunity is only temporary. Little is known yet about SARS-CoV-2 in this respect, but so far people don't seem to get it twice. But the disease is still young.

When Europeans went to the new world they were immune to many diseases but it didn't prevent them from either 1. themselves infecting the indigenous population or 2. bringing with them the diseases to which they were immune?.

When Europeans went to the new world(s), there was only immunity acquired through infections. So when they infected indigenous populations with the measles, smallpox, chicken pox etc., it must have been because enough of them weren't immune and infected each other on the way there until their arrival when somebody with the infection transmitted it to the local population.
Not to be confused with asymptomatic carriers (Wiki) of a disease like Typhoid Mary (Wiki), who had the infection (so she couldn't exactly be described as immune) but didn't come down with the actual disease.

 

[Ulf Nereng]

I read about that. That ship is jinxed. First it wasn't ready in time and friends of mine missed their cruise. Then it was ready and all set to go and a bunch of passengers (including my friends) had their luggage stolen in Santiago on the way to join the ship at Punta Arenas. Now this.

Aren't Norwegians supposed to quarantine at home after coming back from certain countries?

Apparently the rules are different on ships that are registered in an international register instead of a Norwegian one. Those of Hurtigruten's ships that sail to Svalbard and other places outside of Norway proper are registered in NIS which is an international register. The rest are registered in NOR, which is a national one. Those registered in NIS typically have low-paid staff from the Phillipines while the rest have unionized Norwegian staff.

The ship nevertheless broke the rules it was sailing under. It should have gone to the nearest port once they knew they had a pandemic onboard and quarantined there while informing local authorities. They also broke the very old rule that says they should have hoisted a yellow flag, That's from the age of sails, but it still applies.

One of the executives of the company has been suspended pending an investigation by the company's board. The police have also started an investigation.

IMO the captain and the entire board should be keel-hauled and hung from the mizzen-mast provided sucha a mast can be found!

 

[Rolfe]

I'm gradually realising why the management of the cruise I was on last year behaved as if nothing at all was happening when a significant proportion of the passengers on a 10-week voyage went down with a respiratory infection. It wasn't anything serious although a number of people needed antibiotic treatment. It was widespread enough that I thought they should have been sending swabs to Santiago or somewhere to identify the cause, and advising passengers how to avoid transmission. But they said not a word and the crew just went on obsessively sanitising all the handrails. I imagine they were concerned the ship might have been placed under some sort of restrictions if they'd done anything to acknowledge they had a wee bit of an epidemic going on.

 

[bruto]

Certainly different here. My wife and I were on a Nat. Geo. ship doing Patagonia when Chile closed and we had to turn around and circle around the Falklands for a week. It was a small ship (about 100 passengers) and nobody was sick. Everything was as normal except that we couldn't land, so we circled around and watched whales and whatnot until they set up the charter flight to Miami. In the meantime we were living and dining in style. Best quarantine ever.

We're a little apprehensive because we were scheduled to go this coming winter to the Seychelles and Madgascar, and part of that trip is hosted by a Swedish company. They're good, but they're Swedish, which means they may approach things differently and go ahead with it. Parts hosted by others, including flights, have been cancelled, but they haven't and if they don't we'll end up eating the cost.

 

[Rolfe]

The ship we were on last year circumnavigating South America was circumnavigating Africa in January/March this year. I don't know how many ports they ended up missing out but they made it back to Bristol safe without any virus on board.

Two of the other ships belonging to the same company were in the South China Sea at the time. The first plan, to dock in Taiwan and fly the passengers home, was thwarted by Taiwan refusing to take any cruise ships. In the end the ships did an at-sea rendezvous and transfered all the antipodean crew and passengers to one vessel and all the Europeans to the other, using the tenders. One then hopped to Fremantle and dropped the Aussies, Kiwis, Filipinos and so on before returning to Tilbury with a skeleton crew only. The other one sailed back to Tilbury through the Suez Canal with the European passengers and crew, without berthing anywhere (I gather the ship was provisioned at sea from time to time).

There was an online video entitled "Columbus repatriation voyage" showing the passengers sunning themselves and the entertainments staff dreaming up new shows. I guess worse things happen at sea.

 

[Clutch Cargo]

..... I am aware that Denmark has had far fewer cases than Sweden; far fewer, actually, than you can only dream of .... since Sweden only started testing very recently and therefore doesn't have any reliable numbers from the time when the virus peaked in the country.

Sweden has approximately double the population.

... Sweden only started testing very recently .....

We still are not testing really. We can test for antibodies at the Apotek at a price and I don't know if it is included in "Högkostnadsskydd" reductions. Probably not.

And masks! Don't forget about masks!.... .

But Denmark isn't wearing masks.

 

[dann]

Sweden has approximately double the population.

I am aware of that, but feel free to double the Danish numbers or compare Sweden with the other Nordic countries combined. There is no way for you to get around this, sorry!
Sweden
Total (registered) cases: 83,126; total deaths: 5,770; total tests: 863,315
Denmark
Total (registered) cases: 14,959; total deaths: 621; total tests: 1,780,284

Deaths last two weeks Sweden: 66; Denmark: 8.
And Denmark has been doing much worse than Finland and Norway.

We still are not testing really. We can test for antibodies at the Apotek at a price and I don't know if it is included in "Högkostnadsskydd" reductions. Probably not.

No, but Sweden is ramping up antibody testing right now. My assumption is that it's part of Tegnell's plan to convince Swedes that his 'herd immunity' strategy has worked out fine, instead of ramping up testing for the virus, contact tracing and isolation of active and suspected cases, which would actually help bring the number of new cases down.

But Denmark isn't wearing masks.

And Denmark didn't do nearly as well as Japan! And still doesn't.
Deaths per million:
Japan: 8
Denmark: 107
Sweden: 571

And unlike Sweden, we're learning:
Krav om mundbind i bus og tog indføres i seks kommuner (DR.dk, Aug. 10, 2020) - Face masks mandatory on public transport in six municipalities
20.000 elever skal bruge mundbind i visse situationer (TV2.dk, Aug. 11, 2020) - 20,000 students to wear face masks in certain situations
Der bør indføres krav om mundbind alle offentlige steder, mener hver tredje dansker (TV2.dk, Aug. 11, 2020) - One in three Danes think face masks should be made mandatory in all public places. (Actually two out of three, according to the article. And only about 27% don’t want to or are strongly against it.)
Prisen falder: Det koster et mundbind lige nu (DR.dk, Aug. 11, 2020) - The price is falling: What face masks cost right now

You mentioned that you were SD:
Inför munskydd Use face masks
Äldres liv betyder något The lives of old people matter
I disagree with SD on most things, but I applaud their opposition to Tegnell and FHM in this case.

 

[dann]

Tuesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Aug. 11, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 571 (5,770) 154* 35 *since Friday according to SVT.se.
Denmark: 107 (621) 144 2
Finland: 60 (333) 22 1
Norway: 47 (256) 28 2
Iceland: 29 (10) 6 1
Iceland has 114 active cases, Faroe Islands 99, New Zealand 21.
The Faroe Island have 900+ in quarantine, awaiting results from tests carried out Aug. 10.

 

[Clutch Cargo]

..... I am aware that Denmark has had far fewer cases than Sweden; far fewer, actually, than you can only dream of …

Sweden has approximately double the population.

I am aware of that, ….

So, you intentionally left out that very important factor?

There is no way for you to get around this, sorry!

What is it you think I’m trying “to get around”? If you tell someone that Sweden has more cases of Coronavirus but you do not tell them that Sweden’s population is double that of Denmark then it looks very much like it is you who is trying to “get around” something. Let the facts speak for themselves, don’t lead your reader to imagine something that is worse than truth.

We still are not testing really. We can test for antibodies at the Apotek at a price and I don't know if it is included in "Högkostnadsskydd" reductions. Probably not

No, but Sweden is ramping up antibody testing right now. My assumption is that it's part of Tegnell's plan to convince Swedes that his 'herd immunity' strategy has worked out fine, instead of ramping up testing for the virus, contact tracing and isolation of active and suspected cases, which would actually help bring the number of new cases down.

That’s what YOU say. There is so much being said in such extreme disagreement with everyone else that I don’t believe anyone.

1. I see what we are doing in Sweden.
2. I see that Denmark is doing the same as we are.
3. I see what they are doing in Germany: Extreme measures.
4. I see that Denmark and Germany have allowed us into their countries.
5. My personal conclusion: No one knows anything and all of the scary scenarios don’t seem to deter Denmark and Germany from letting Swedes visit.

As I said, I am 73 and I have a pace-maker so I am in the high risk zone and I have no reason to be too optimistic, but life goes on all around me and there isn’t much reason for it not to ..... AS FAR AS I CAN SEE.

You mentioned that you were SD:
Inför munskydd Use face masks
Äldres liv betyder något The lives of old people matter
I disagree with SD on most things, but I applaud their opposition to Tegnell and FHM in this case.

There is very little about SD that I disagree with.

 

[dann]

So, you intentionally left out that very important factor?

This is pathetic. You are new to this thread. Apart from you and Gavin, I don't think anybody else is, i.e. people here are, for the most part, aware of Sweden being larger than Denmark. They are also aware that Denmark (+ Greenland and the Faroe Islands), Finland, Iceland and Norway combined are larger than Sweden, and yet they have only a fraction of the deaths Sweden has had.

What is it you think I’m trying “to get around”? If you tell someone that Sweden has more cases of Coronavirus but you do not tell them that Sweden’s population is double that of Denmark then it looks very much like it is you who is trying to “get around” something. Let the facts speak for themselves, don’t lead your reader to imagine something that is worse than truth.

I have told them! I have done so more than once. You are new to this thread. Why do you think I have included Deaths per million in my daily updates? To fool people? I haven't let 'my readers' imagine anything. With the deaths per million number it would be difficult for 'my reader' to imagine anything. Besides, if you follow my link to Worldometers, which I have included in every single update, all you need to do is look to the right side of the screen where you'll find the size of the populations of all the countries.
If you imagine that this is an attempt to let people "imagine something that is worse than the truth," then you're beyond the reach of common sense!

That’s what YOU say. There is so much being said in such extreme disagreement with everyone else that I don’t believe anyone.

1. I see what we are doing in Sweden.
2. I see that Denmark is doing the same as we are.
3. I see what they are doing in Germany: Extreme measures.
4. I see that Denmark and Germany have allowed us into their countries.
5. My personal conclusion: No one knows anything and all of the scary scenarios don’t seem to deter Denmark and Germany from letting Swedes visit.

2: Most of the time, Denmark hasn't been doing the same thing Sweden has.
3: Measures in Germany haven't been extreme except in the case of big flare ups, which they have quarantined off.
5: Some know more than others, and some are trying to make their pandemic measures appear to be more effective than others. Some test an awful lot, others don't:
Sweden: 85,424
Denmark: 307,237
(Is it really necessary to mention that Sweden has 10.1 million inhabitants, and Denmark has 5.8?!"
My personal conclusion: These are just some of the things we actually know. You'll find an awful lot of others in this thread.

As I said, I am 73 and I have a pace-maker* so I am in the high risk zone and I have no reason to be too optimistic, but life goes on all around me and there isn’t much reason for it not to ..... AS FAR AS I CAN SEE.

I don't think anybody's asked life to stop going on around us.

There is very little about SD that I disagree with.

Then I'd recommend that you try to persuade them to encourage Swedes to wear masks - not just if they're care workers.


ETA:
Sweden: 5770 deaths
Other Nordic countries combined: 1220 deaths
Is that better? Or do I need to add the population data, too?

*ETA2: You have probably already got a pneumococcus vaccination then (and you are probably going to get a flu shot this autumn), but in case you haven't, I'd recommend that you get one:

"When we looked in the setting of Covid disease, we found that people who had prior vaccinations with a variety of vaccines -- for pneumococcus, influenza, hepatitis and others -- appeared to have a lower risk of getting Covid disease," Dr. Andrew Badley, an infectious disease specialist at Mayo Clinic, told CNN's Anderson Cooper on Monday night.
It's what immunologists call immune training: how your immune system creates an effective response to fight off infections, Badley says.
Previous vaccines and masks may hold down Covid-19, some researchers say (CNN, Aug. 11, 2020)

 

[Rolfe]

Scotland hasn't had any more confirmed deaths but we had 52 new cases today, dammit. Three things going on. One is the Aberdeen cluster which seems to be contained as it isn't spiking exponentially, but is still some way from elimination, the second is something happening in and around Glasgow that hasn't been explained and might be a general increase in community transmission as a result of the pubs opening, and the third is an appreciable rise from baseline across the country as a whole, which might be the same thing but not so marked as in the city.

Many if not most of the new cases are people in their twenties, which explains the lack of increased hospital admissions and deaths. One can only hope they contain this before these idiots pass it on to their older friends and relatives, and before the inevitable 20-something does get seriously ill and/or hit by long covid.

Our current 7-day average of new infections is 51.7 per day, which is about ten times what we'd like it to be. Although it should start going down a bit tomorrow as we're a week from the peak of the cluster. Unless something else happens. I don't think Aberdeen is opening this week, on a bet.

 

[Giordano]

So, you intentionally left out that very important factor?





What is it you think I’m trying “to get around”? If you tell someone that Sweden has more cases of Coronavirus but you do not tell them that Sweden’s population is double that of Denmark then it looks very much like it is you who is trying to “get around” something. Let the facts speak for themselves, don’t lead your reader to imagine something that is worse than truth.








That’s what YOU say. There is so much being said in such extreme disagreement with everyone else that I don’t believe anyone.

1. I see what we are doing in Sweden.
2. I see that Denmark is doing the same as we are.
3. I see what they are doing in Germany: Extreme measures.
4. I see that Denmark and Germany have allowed us into their countries.
5. My personal conclusion: No one knows anything and all of the scary scenarios don’t seem to deter Denmark and Germany from letting Swedes visit.

As I said, I am 73 and I have a pace-maker so I am in the high risk zone and I have no reason to be too optimistic, but life goes on all around me and there isn’t much reason for it not to ..... AS FAR AS I CAN SEE.





There is very little about SD that I disagree with.

Ninja’d by Dann himself but I will add my part: Dann has repeatedly been careful in this thread to present and discuss the various statistics per capita as well as per population, as can easily be confirmed by examining the thread. He/she has taken a lot of effort to discuss and consider other differences in the populations of these countries that might explain the differences in disease incidences and deaths. I have found him/her to be among the most fact based and unbiased of our members in this regard.

 

[Rolfe]

That graph I posted on the previous page was in cases per 10 million. Every picture tells a story.

[imgw=700]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ee-hHHxWsAAje9I?format=png[/imgw]

 

[dann]

Welcome to immigration New Zealand!

 

[dann]

I don't know if this article and its copies of several emails will remain open access for long, so you should all download it immediately. In particular those of you who may have doubted that Sweden's strategy was 'herd immunity'. Giesecke was behind it all from the very beginning:
Mejlen som avslöjar Gieseckes indflytande över coronaplanen (Expressen.se, Aug. 11, 2020)

ETA: Tegnell-mejlen: Berättelsen om Johan Giesecke och Folkhälsomyndigheten (EmanuelKarsten.se, Aug. 11, 2020)

 

[Clutch Cargo]

This is pathetic. You are new to this thread. Apart from you and Gavin, I don't think anybody else is, i.e. people here are, for the most part, aware of Sweden being larger than Denmark. They are also aware that Denmark (+ Greenland and the Faroe Islands), Finland, Iceland and Norway combined are larger than Sweden, and yet they have only a fraction of the deaths Sweden has had.

I have told them! I have done so more than once. You are new to this thread. Why do you think I have included Deaths per million in my daily updates? To fool people? I haven't let 'my readers' imagine anything. With the deaths per million number it would be difficult for 'my reader' to imagine anything. Besides, if you follow my link to Worldometers, which I have included in every single update, all you need to do is look to the right side of the screen where you'll find the size of the populations of all the countries.
If you imagine that this is an attempt to let people "imagine something that is worse than the truth," then you're beyond the reach of common sense!

2: Most of the time, Denmark hasn't been doing the same thing Sweden has.
3: Measures in Germany haven't been extreme except in the case of big flare ups, which they have quarantined off.
5: Some know more than others, and some are trying to make their pandemic measures appear to be more effective than others. Some test an awful lot, others don't:
Sweden: 85,424
Denmark: 307,237
(Is it really necessary to mention that Sweden has 10.1 million inhabitants, and Denmark has 5.8?!"
My personal conclusion: These are just some of the things we actually know. You'll find an awful lot of others in this thread.

I don't think anybody's asked life to stop going on around us.

Then I'd recommend that you try to persuade them to encourage Swedes to wear masks - not just if they're care workers.

ETA:
Sweden: 5770 deaths
Other Nordic countries combined: 1220 deaths
Is that better? Or do I need to add the population data, too?

*ETA2: You have probably already got a pneumococcus vaccination then (and you are probably going to get a flu shot this autumn), but in case you haven't, I'd recommend that you get one:

You are clearly taking this too personally. I don’t know what you imagine I said but I am merely trying to keep the subject factual (where it is factual) and pointing out personal opinion (when that is all that it is). I think you've crossed that line, stating your personal opinion but presenting it as fact. I have taken no stance but If I cannot express the difference between fact and supposition without you seeing it as criticism then it’s not good. Relax and do not assume that open observation is an attack. This is a discussion, not a debate.