Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[d4m10n]

Remember when earlier in the thread I shared a piece of research which indicated that the people who run women's shelters are and have been admitting trans women on self-identification alone for years, and that both they and the cis women in the shelters were welcoming and supportive of this?

Was that in the original thread or the bath of Khan?

 

[lionking]

I would humbly suggest that things like women's shelter are just a pretextual wedge issue for the TERFs who really just don't like the idea of trans women being considered "real" like cis women. Like the Great Bathroom Panics, it's an almost entirely imagined problem.

It strikes me as very similar in tone to the great Gay panics, where bigots insisted it wasn't bigotry to treat all gay men as pedophiles and wouldn't stop talking about the necessity of excluding them from having access to kids through educational jobs/volunteering.

I wish you would stop using this lazy, insulting and dismissive word. There are women in this thread who I have got to know over time on this forum who are uncomfortable with self-identification. They are not TERFs by any definition.

I get that it’s easy to use words like TERFs, bigots and transphobes for people who disagree with your position. It adds nothing to the debate though.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I would humbly suggest that things like women's shelter are just a pretextual wedge issue for the TERFs who really just don't like the idea of trans women being considered "real" like cis women. Like the Great Bathroom Panics, it's an almost entirely imagined problem.

It strikes me as very similar in tone to the great Gay panics, where bigots insisted it wasn't bigotry to treat all gay men as pedophiles and wouldn't stop talking about the necessity of excluding them from having access to kids through educational jobs/volunteering.

Oh, sure. I agree entirely.

But even a pretextual wedge issue should actually, you know, be true.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Was that in the original thread or the bath of Khan?

This one or 2. Very recently.

 

[Rolfe]

It is enough to matter. Male skeletal structure doesn't change after sex change post puberty. And that conveys advantages in many sports, including any which rely on running speed.

Interestingly, there is even an advantage with zero testosterone.

If it was all about testosterone and nothing else mattered, you would imagine that women with CAIS would show up nowhere at all in athletics competitions. After all, they have zero bioavailable testosterone, unlike normal 46XX women who have a low but measurable amount.

Surprise! When they started testing for the SRY gene in women's athletics, as a better way to spot the male ringers than karyotype spreads, the number of XY women was startling. I can't remember the exact stats, but CAIS women as a proportion of elite female athletes turned out to be massively higher than CAIS women as a proportion of the population as a whole.

CAIS women have never gone through male puberty, they have never experienced the strength and stamina advantages of testosterone in any way at all. They are bodies that are in effect testosterone-naive. And yet they're way over-represented. I don't know what confers the advantage, something else on that Y chromosome possibly, but it totally disproves any suggestion that nothing matters except testosterone.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I wish you would stop using this lazy, insulting and dismissive word. There are women in this thread who I have got to know over time on this forum who are uncomfortable with self-identification. They are not TERFs by any definition.

I get that it’s easy to use words like TERFs, bigots and transphobes for people who disagree with your position. It adds nothing to the debate though.

I wish people in this thread wouldn't misgender people. It's lazy, insulting, and dismissive. And it is a factor in driving people to suicide, as well as well as just generally contributing to the discrimination against one of the most discriminated against groups in the world.

Perhaps an agreement could be reached? Nobody misgenders anybody, and nobody uses the term "TERF". Reasonable?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I wish you would stop using this lazy, insulting and dismissive word. There are women in this thread who I have got to know over time on this forum who are uncomfortable with self-identification. They are not TERFs by any definition.

I get that it’s easy to use words like TERFs, bigots and transphobes for people who disagree with your position. It adds nothing to the debate though.

I am uncomfortable with TERFs self-identifying as non-bigots.

 

[Rolfe]

There is a problem with the people who run women's DV shelters. They need funding, and a lot of that comes from the state. If the state says "take in men and like it or lose funding" then they tend to make a show of the "like it" part. This was found to be the case in Scotland where lip service was being paid to "inclusivity" while in effect running parallel but separate facilities for women and men who claimed to be women, because of the huge discomfort many women who have experience DV feel when in the company of male-bodied people.

Another problem is that the extremely woke like to insert themselves into these positions to promote the woke agenda. And the people who make the appointments love this because if they have a woke person in charge this is good for brownie points with the funding bodies. In one region in Scotland they actually appointed a man who pretends to be a woman as the head of the women's rape shelter provision. A lot of people are quite upset about this, particularly traumatised women who are triggered by any man and seek to avoid men completely.

The fact that a man had so little understanding of abused women that he deliberately inserted himself into this position says quite a lot. It's all about him and his goal of inclusivity and his desire to insert himself into women's spaces, and not at all about the battered women who need the service. I think this is exactly the sort of situation the phrase "stay in your lane" was invented for.

 

[caveman1917]

More like:

Trans people: We're an extremely at risk population that is suffering for want of social services
Trans Allies: Oh you poor dears, we'll make sure you get access to resources
TERFS: Yeah but not in my shelter, let'em die
Trans Allies: Horrible evil transphobe!

More like:

Trans people: We're an extremely at risk population that is suffering for want of social services.

People in general: Oh you poor dears, we'll make sure you get access to resources. *ensures access to resources*

Trans Allies: Look, we found a single shelter that is still single-sex!

TERFS: Yeah, we think that women should have a choice between single-sex and unisex services, so we refer transwomen to the unisex rape shelter services in the vicinity.

Trans Allies: Horrible evil transphobes! No choice! *nails a dead rat to the door* *vandalizes the entry*

Powerful Trans Allies: We will shut down the horrible evil transphobes! There shall be no choice, neither for women to choose the type of accommodation they are comfortable with, nor for poor immigrant women (which is entirely coincidental, we swear!) to choose whether to wax someone's balls or not. Your leaders are looking out for you! No choice!

TERFS: How exactly does shutting down one rape shelter accomplish anything? Even by your own logic, isn't the effort better spent in, you know, expanding unisex services rather than shutting down single-sex services?

Trans Allies: Shut up you horrible evil transphobes! No choice!

Trans people: You know, the TERFS do have a point. If I were to ever need a rape shelter I'd prefer finding myself able to get accommodated in one because our leaders spent their effort expanding unisex services, as opposed to not finding a spot in the available unisex services but at least knowing that neither do the people who'd have preferred single-sex services because our leaders did spend their effort in getting that one single-sex service shut down.

Also, there are some concerns about whether this whole thing with nailing dead rats to the doors of rape shelters and suing immigrant women for refusing to wax someone's balls is actually helpful here.

Trans Allies: Shut up you truscum! All hail the leaders! No choice!

Pretty much everyone: Ok...

 

[Rolfe]

I wish people in this thread wouldn't misgender people. It's lazy, insulting, and dismissive. And it is a factor in driving people to suicide, as well as well as just generally contributing to the discrimination against one of the most discriminated against groups in the world.

Perhaps an agreement could be reached? Nobody misgenders anybody, and nobody uses the term "TERF". Reasonable?

No. And could we have some actual statistics on the suicide rate in trans-identifying people, compared to the suicide rate in those with other comparable mental health problems? Also some evidence that reading an article or a post where someone is referred to by the correct pronouns for their sex has ever actually caused someone to kill themselves? (And it still wouldn't be the fault of the person who wrote that article or post.)

 

[Belz...]

I wish people in this thread wouldn't misgender people. It's lazy, insulting, and dismissive. And it is a factor in driving people to suicide, as well as well as just generally contributing to the discrimination against one of the most discriminated against groups in the world.

Perhaps an agreement could be reached? Nobody misgenders anybody, and nobody uses the term "TERF". Reasonable?

No.

The problem is that there's disagreement about what gender means to begin with. It's hard to gender people properly without an agreement to that. But we've not had very substantive answers on that front.

How's this: man = adult human male; woman = adult human female. Before that they are called boys and girls, respectively. That's gender, directly related to biologial sex. A trans woman is a male that identifies (sees themselves) as a woman, and vice-versa. That's gender identity, and I think we all agree on what gender roles are.

The only consequence of these definitions, which I think correspond to how we understood these terms up until very recently, is simply that trans women are not actual women, which changes almost nothing anyway. Just add the prefix -- a prefix that means that they're not women anyway. It clears up the matter of trans women in sports, trans woman pregnancy and other such absurdities, but it leaves open the question of restrooms, for instance.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'm continuing my policy of not engaging with people who misgender, but I will point out the irony of the poster who authored post #1088 demanding citations.

 

[Meadmaker]

TERFs.

Not everyone who advocates against self-ID, or who says that trans-women are not women, is a radical feminist. I don't think there are many radical feminists participating here. I can't think of anyone offhand that I would say is a radical feminist.

What's up with the TERF thing?

 

[Belz...]

I'm continuing my policy of not engaging with people who misgender,

As I pointed out in my post, though, it's only misgendering because you've changed the meaning of the word, but you can't even pin it down.

 

[Belz...]

TERFs.

Not everyone who advocates against self-ID, or who says that trans-women are not women, is a radical feminist. I don't think there are many radical feminists participating here. I can't think of anyone offhand that I would say is a radical feminist.

What's up with the TERF thing?

It's a label that allows you to brand someone as evil, and consequently to not have to put up the effort of addresing their arguments.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

TERFs.

Not everyone who advocates against self-ID, or who says that trans-women are not women, is a radical feminist. I don't think there are many radical feminists participating here. I can't think of anyone offhand that I would say is a radical feminist.

What's up with the TERF thing?

That's fair. Not all these trans bigoted feminists are really that radical in their feminism.

Though, common use rules the day, and TERF is widely understood to apply to any fringe anti-trans feminists.

It's a label that allows you to brand someone as evil, and consequently to not have to put up the effort of addresing their arguments.

TERF isn't a slur. It's a shorthand for a ideological position. It's not more an insult than calling a creationist a creationist, or calling a white supremacist a white supremacist.

There is a lot of animus directed towards TERFs (rightly so in my opinion), but the term itself is not derogatory when applied to trans-exclusionists.

 

[Belz...]

That's fair. Not all these trans bigoted feminists are really that radical in their feminism.

Though, common use rules the day, and TERF is widely understood to apply to any fringe anti-trans feminists.

Intolerance and disagreement are not the same thing.

 

[lionking]

I wish people in this thread wouldn't misgender people. It's lazy, insulting, and dismissive. And it is a factor in driving people to suicide, as well as well as just generally contributing to the discrimination against one of the most discriminated against groups in the world.

Perhaps an agreement could be reached? Nobody misgenders anybody, and nobody uses the term "TERF". Reasonable?

Okay ignore my request if you wish, but let me ask a question, and I apologise if it’s been asked before. Do you believe that each and every person who declares they are a woman have the right to be accepted as such? That there are zero cases of men simply pretending to be women for whatever reason? That refusal to accept someone’s declaration that they are a woman is misgendering?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Intolerance and disagreement are not the same thing.

Depends on what you disagree about, doesn't it?

 

[lionking]

That's fair. Not all these trans bigoted feminists are really that radical in their feminism.

Though, common use rules the day, and TERF is widely understood to apply to any fringe anti-trans feminists.



TERF isn't a slur. It's a shorthand for a ideological position. It's not more an insult than calling a creationist a creationist, or calling a white supremacist a white supremacist.

There is a lot of animus directed towards TERFs (rightly so in my opinion), but the term itself is not derogatory when applied to trans-exclusionists.

Nonsense and you know it.