Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[Mumbles]

Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?

"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police. Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.

The problem is that, in the case of the police it's not "a few bad apples", it's entire departments. Baltimore PD's recruitment has collapsed after multiple scandals involving police caught planting drugs on their own body cameras, the laughable Gun Trace Task Force, and starting a riot on the day of Freddie Grey's funeral by forcing high-schoolers towards a local mall, and then blasting them with rubber bullets for being too close to the local mall.

Can you show that there are any cities where the great majority of protestors aren't peaceful?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?

"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police. Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.

ACAB isn't an assault on civil rights. Making reforms to police departments, including cutting budgets, isn't a violation of individual cops civil rights.

Being called a bastard by protesters isn't comparable to deciding that citizens can't assemble and demand redress, something explicitly protected by the Bill of Rights.

Mentioning these two in the same context is absurd.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?



"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police. Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.

A protester can't do a whole lot to stop a vandal and they have implied no intention to do so by wanting to protest.

A police officer is uniquely capable of stopping criminal activity, whoever is conducting it, and has implied they intend to do so by wanting to be a police officer.

There is an enormous difference in culpability.

 

[Shadowdweller]

The New York Times confirms that Antifa is, in fact, a thing:

"Antifa" is a thing that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the ridiculous scare-fiction promulgated by the right-wing echo chamber. The local chapter, Rose City Antifa, is supposedly one of the older variants thereof (stemming all the way back from 2007 if their website is to be believed).

https://rosecityantifa.org/
https://twitter.com/RoseCityAntifa?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

While Antifa has ties to various other activist groups and trends toward general anti-police sentiment, their focus is almost entirely on "outing" (sometimes doxxing) hate-speech and hate-groups; and counterprotesting where said groups gather. More importantly best evidence has shown that Antifa groups have NOT been significantly involved in recent protests.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...and-protesters-with-antifa-ties-idUSKCN2502NQ

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/30/anarchists-and-antifa-not-according-to-the-data/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/antifa-protests-george-floyd.html

 

[Shadowdweller]

ACAB isn't an assault on civil rights. Making reforms to police departments, including cutting budgets, isn't a violation of individual cops civil rights.

While ACAB doesn't have the same ethical weight as murder or physical assault, sure, it isn't a slogan aimed at achievable reform either. Nor are chants like "No cops! No prisons! Total abolition!"

 

[TurkeysGhost]

While ACAB doesn't have the same ethical weight as murder or physical assault, sure, it isn't a slogan aimed at meaningful reform either. Nor are chants like "No cops! No prisons! Total abolition!"

ACAB is more than just insulting cops. It's a statement about the nature of policing in which all cops, even those that don't personally engaged in bad behavior, are enablers of a system of impunity. Not all cops are out there violating civil rights or committing crimes, but all cops are refusing to take action to stop this and change the system.

Cops that speak out against this system find themselves quickly not cops anymore.

 

[CapelDodger]

Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?

Because people are not perfect. They can project their particular experiences onto the collective and reach the conclusion that, for instance, all coppers are bastards.

"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police.

It's just as valid as the position that protesters should not be held collectively responsilbe for what some of them do.

Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.

Every society needs a police force, and no society should trust them. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" and all that. You should perhaps ask yourself why so many people get the impression that all coppers are bastards.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You should perhaps ask yourself why so many people get the impression that all coppers are bastards.

Sensationalism bias. Nothing sells like a scandal.

 

[CapelDodger]

ACAB is more than just insulting cops. It's a statement about the nature of policing in which all cops, even those that don't personally engaged in bad behavior, are enablers of a system of impunity. Not all cops are out there violating civil rights or committing crimes, but all cops are refusing to take action to stop this and change the system.

Cops that speak out against this system find themselves quickly not cops anymore.

There's no end of anectdotal evidence for that, and the dragging inertia of police culture generally supports it. From what I've read, police unions have a lot to answer for in that regard.

 

[CapelDodger]

Sensationalism bias. Nothing sells like a scandal.

What? People have a sensationalism bias when judging their own experiences, and those of people they know, because they're hoping for a saleable scandal? Do you think everybody looks at life as an opportunity to be a reality-TV star? Or what?

 

[Emily's Cat]

What? People have a sensationalism bias when judging their own experiences, and those of people they know, because they're hoping for a saleable scandal? Do you think everybody looks at life as an opportunity to be a reality-TV star? Or what?

I'm not talking about person experiences. I'm talking about what information the general public gets exposed to.

Media provides sensational material. Cops behaving well doesn't make the news.

The news and media outlets in the US don't provide a representative sample of interactions. They'll show you the handful of vandals setting things on fire, but they won't show you the thousands of peaceful protesters. Or they'll show you the police using pepper spray, but won't show you what led up to that action. They'll give you the juiciest bits that are sure to prompt outrage.

Scandals sell; Truth and fairness do not.

 

[CapelDodger]

While ACAB doesn't have the same ethical weight as murder or physical assault, sure, it isn't a slogan aimed at achievable reform either. Nor are chants like "No cops! No prisons! Total abolition!"

Slogans and chants have contributed damn' little to achieved reform through history. "I can't breathe!" might go down as one that did.

 

[CapelDodger]

I'm not talking about person experiences. I'm talking about what information the general public gets exposed to.

The general public are individuals, and I'm talking about individual experiences.

Media provides sensational material. Cops behaving well doesn't make the news.

That has no bearing on people's actual experience.

The news and media outlets in the US don't provide a representative sample of interactions.

If the sample you and the people you know experience is of coppers acting like bastards it's as representative as you need.

Scandals sell; Truth and fairness do not.

That has no bearing on people's actual experience. Reality does not come to one through a tube.

 

[Emily's Cat]

... That has no bearing on people's actual experience. Reality does not come to one through a tube.

I feel like the conversation shifted somewhere along the way. You asked:

You should perhaps ask yourself why so many people get the impression that all coppers are bastards.

I gave an answer to that.

There's a problem with the justice system in the US, definitely. But the reason that so many people have the impression that ALL COPPERS ARE BASTARDS isn't because of their own person experiences with cops. It's because they are shown cops being bastards on a regular basis, even if that isn't actually representative of the behavior of the majority of police.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

"Antifa" is a thing that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the ridiculous scare-fiction promulgated by the right-wing echo chamber. The local chapter, Rose City Antifa, is supposedly one of the older variants thereof (stemming all the way back from 2007 if their website is to be believed).

https://rosecityantifa.org/
https://twitter.com/RoseCityAntifa?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

While Antifa has ties to various other activist groups and trends toward general anti-police sentiment, their focus is almost entirely on "outing" (sometimes doxxing) hate-speech and hate-groups; and counterprotesting where said groups gather. More importantly best evidence has shown that Antifa groups have NOT been significantly involved in recent protests.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...and-protesters-with-antifa-ties-idUSKCN2502NQ

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/30/anarchists-and-antifa-not-according-to-the-data/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/antifa-protests-george-floyd.html

My in-person experience with (self-identified) Antifa around the time of Occupy was lots of virtuous rhetoric, lots of criminal behavior, and lots of pejoratives for anyone who so much as questioned them. They weren't but about 2% of the crowds and only a handful would be at general assembly (usually to remind us we're all not committed enough to "do what it takes"). But every night, the press portrays everyone as Antifa, shows the broken windows and fires, but has no time for the b-roll from the peaceful vigil.

It sucks. But it isn't going to change. So I don't get the continued flirtation with it. They are not there for the purported reasons of organizers time after time. They refuse to respect requests of organizers time after time. But since there's a meme with a picture from the D-Day landings labeled "largest Antifa operation ever" and they got sympathetic coverage over Charlottesville, you can't tell them off without losing a whole lot of protest bodies. So it's a bit of a devil's dilemma.

Complaining about how unfair it is they dominate the coverage doesn’t work either. But then, an outright denunciation creates an inner rift within the movement because it chills those who wouldn't do it themselves, but wink at it.

I'd be more impressed by the leaf-blower dads if there was a squad of guys in padded leather who will stand in front of windows or other acts of blocking vandalism. Make it clear bail fund money will not be available to those arrested for certain classes of crimes.

 

[CapelDodger]

I feel like the conversation shifted somewhere along the way. You asked:

I gave an answer to that.

Not a credible one.

There's a problem with the justice system in the US, definitely. But the reason that so many people have the impression that ALL COPPERS ARE BASTARDS isn't because of their own person experiences with cops. It's because they are shown cops being bastards on a regular basis, even if that isn't actually representative of the behavior of the majority of police.

I'm well acquainted with the East End of London where the saying originated, and I can assure you that the media have nothing to do with it.

 

[CapelDodger]

Rioters are a blight on every protest, I'm sure we can all agree on that. Anyone who wants to flirt with them can take issue with me.

 

[Ziggurat]

Slogans and chants have contributed damn' little to achieved reform through history. "I can't breathe!" might go down as one that did.

The only reform that should lead to is wider deployment of naloxone to law enforcement to treat opioid overdose. Floyd couldn't breathe because he had overdosed on Fentanyl, and he was saying that before the cops even touched him. The cops didn't kill Floyd, he killed himself. I assume by accident, but it was still his own drug use which killed him.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I don't remember the coroner saying that, or that he died from Covid19. What's your source?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm well acquainted with the East End of London where the saying originated, and I can assure you that the media have nothing to do with it.

Sorry CapelDodger, I'm very confused. Are you talking about British cops and media? I thought we were talking about US cops and media, so my comments may not have been applicable.