Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[theprestige]

Nobody declared biology as arbitrary. The rules on who can use what restroom were declared arbitrary; probably because those rules were not based on biology.

Those rules are literally based on biology. Not directly, but the whole point of a base is that it's the base of a structure. And the structure of our laws and customs about gender are very much based on biology. Binary sex isn't a social construct. It's a biological fact. It's a biological fact with such obvious visual indicators that it's been the basis of binary gender constructs in human society since at least as far back as humans have left records of such things. Including the rules on who can use what restroom. Which are therefore not arbitrary.

 

[Meadmaker]

Nobody declared biology as arbitrary. The rules on who can use what restroom were declared arbitrary; probably because those rules were not based on biology.

Whatever might be said about a rule that segregates bathroom and locker room facilities based on the nature of the organs involved in urination, that rule is not "arbitrary".

Maybe it's not a good rule, but it isn't arbitrary.

 

[theprestige]

You guys arguing against TM talk a good game about how thourough and instinctual people’s ability to evaluate gender signals is, but actual people who are not trying at all to be gender benders get misgendered by strangers all the time, often because of one fashion or physical signifier that overrides everything else. A boy dressed like other boys, with long hair. A woman dressed like other women, with an angular face. I’m only a little bit of a tomboy, but if I tuck my hair under my hat, waitstaff have been known to call me ‘sir.’

Good point. So here's a question: How does this ambiguity factor into the kind of public policy you would like to see enacted for things like bathrooms, locker rooms, and women's sports?

 

[Emily's Cat]

That seems a little like wanting to have a conversation about what it's like to live in Japan, yet not thinking it relevant to hear what anybody who has set foot inside the country thinks.

How does that differ from wanting to be treated like, accepted, as and recognized as a woman, yet not thinking that it's relevant to actually listen to people who were born and raised as women when they express concerns...

 

[Agatha]

Thread off moderated status. Please continue to follow the MA in your posts.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

How does that differ from wanting to be treated like, accepted, as and recognized as a woman, yet not thinking that it's relevant to actually listen to people who were born and raised as women when they express concerns...

Do you think that's something I advocate for?

 

[theprestige]

Do you think that's something I advocate for?

Do you advocate for it? Why or why not?

 

[The Atheist]

You guys arguing against TM talk a good game about how thourough and instinctual people’s ability to evaluate gender signals is...

Haha! That is 100% on the money.

When my boy #2 was four, he decided to let his hair grow long and have a ponytail. The kids at his kindergarten were convinced he was a girl.

Then, when my next boy was about the same age, he met my daughter's friend, who was a girl with short hair. He thought she was a boy, which got funnier when several years later she transitioned to male.

 

[Meadmaker]

If only real life were as simple. But since you claim that you originally posted the image in order to spark a discussion on the linguistics of the word "woman", then I think you know that the question here - with both A) and B) - is what the definition of "females" and "males" actually is.

There seems to be a suggestion that it's necessarily linked to the physical, but there are a number of academic papers and references which maintain that social dysphoria can be had without body dysphoria, and that both are gender dysphoria. There seems to be an even stronger suggestion that social dysphoria either isn't real and people are just pretending, or that it doesn't matter. But I've seen research which suggests that of the two it's social dysphoria that causes by far the most amount of distress to transgender and non-binary people. And I think that declaring the field of psychology to be wrong on any particular issue really requires more than incredulity or ridicule.

So what are the various viewpoints, and how is it possible to reach a solution that caters to everybody's needs? I don't know. I do know it's not as simple as you're presenting it to be.

Even you know it's not as simple as you're presenting it to be, at least if you read your own link. The whole thing apparently started because the individual in question was welcomed into a women's only group and one member wasn't happy about it. It seems that the other members were. So what does that mean for "leav[ing] it up to the women for whom the spaces were originally set aside" (assuming by that that you mean cis women)? How many women have to object for it to become not okay? How do you avoid the tyranny of the majority whichever way the chips fall?

I wonder if "dysphoria" as a term is going to be around for much longer.

No one questions the existence of gender dysphoria, and while it is new to me, the terminology of "social dysphoria" versus "body dysphoria" is something that I can grasp. However, it is still "dysphoria". That word means a condition of anxiety. The person who is dysphoric feels a state of unease or anxiety. So, a female who experiences "gender dysphoria" is anxious about her gender.....or sex...or something....well, that person's identity as a female causes anxiety. I suppose "body dysphoria" would be anxiety related to having a female body, while "social dysphoria" would be anxiety about being treated as a female.

But, as Zig noted, and as I and others commented, the existence of that anxiety causing condition doesn't mean that the word "female" loses its meaning or that a given person who is dysphoric about being female ceases to be female.

Using "dysphoria" to describe the condition suggests that "it's all in her head", doesn't it? "Gender dysphoria" suggests that the problem is anxiety or unease.

I'm surprised that there isn't more pushback against that label.

 

[Rolfe]

How does that differ from wanting to be treated like, accepted, as and recognized as a woman, yet not thinking that it's relevant to actually listen to people who were born and raised as women when they express concerns...

Men: we feel uncomfortable and unsafe and oppressed
Trans allies: oh you poor dears, we must bend reality to give you comfort
Women: we feel uncomfortable and unsafe and oppressed
Trans allies: terfs! haters! get back in your box!

 

[Ziggurat]

You guys arguing against TM talk a good game about how thourough and instinctual people’s ability to evaluate gender signals is

That's a straw man. People's abilities don't have to be thorough or instinctual for them to still work well in some cases.

but actual people who are not trying at all to be gender benders get misgendered by strangers all the time, often because of one fashion or physical signifier that overrides everything else.

Sure. The SNL "Pat" sketches exist for a reason. But that's not really relevant to the specific case that was under consideration.

 

[Ziggurat]

Certain types of hatred is indeed protected in the Constitution, at least in latter amendments.

The constitution is silent on "hate". Given the difficulty of even defining it in a legal sense, that's probably a good thing. But it's protected indirectly through things like freedom of speech.

Discrimination on the basis of sex is unconstitutional,

Hold up. It is unconstitutional for the government to discriminate on the basis of sex in most (but not all) situations. The constitution places no prohibition on individual nongovernmental actions other than the prohibition on treason.

The law (not the constitution) makes discrimination on the basis of sex illegal in some situations specified by law, but it does not (and should not, and cannot) outlaw sex discrimination categorically.

 

[Lithrael]

Good point. So here's a question: How does this ambiguity factor into the kind of public policy you would like to see enacted for things like bathrooms, locker rooms, and women's sports?

Well, sports is its own big can of worms and what I’d like to see happen (massively advantaged people sensibly self selecting out) is a utopian ideal so I really don’t know what to do there.

Bath/locker/changing rooms I’d like to see promotion to the norm of an a-gendered approach normalizing people wanting backup if they’re uncomfortable with anyone full stop. Weird behavior and loitering should be the socially disapproved thing. Asking someone to let them know when the person that freaked them out has left should be ok no matter what. Long term hanging out in delicate shared spaces should be socially disapproved. People running the building should be allowed to ask people to leave after x minutes (and should at least lip service enforce it on everyone not just the few people that set off specific bells). That kind of thing.

 

[Rolfe]

And if a substantial number of people don't see that as a good outcome? Things should just be arranged as you decree and damn their discomfort and feelings of being threatened?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The constitution is silent on "hate". Given the difficulty of even defining it in a legal sense, that's probably a good thing. But it's protected indirectly through things like freedom of speech.



Hold up. It is unconstitutional for the government to discriminate on the basis of sex in most (but not all) situations. The constitution places no prohibition on individual nongovernmental actions other than the prohibition on treason.

The law (not the constitution) makes discrimination on the basis of sex illegal in some situations specified by law, but it does not (and should not, and cannot) outlaw sex discrimination categorically.

I was speaking imprecisely. The context here is the potentially discriminatory conduct of schools, a government actor, towards trans people.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You guys arguing against TM talk a good game about how thourough and instinctual people’s ability to evaluate gender signals is, but actual people who are not trying at all to be gender benders get misgendered by strangers all the time, often because of one fashion or physical signifier that overrides everything else. A boy dressed like other boys, with long hair. A woman dressed like other women, with an angular face. I’m only a little bit of a tomboy, but if I tuck my hair under my hat, waitstaff have been known to call me ‘sir.’

The existence of gray doesn't negate black or white. The existence of intersex conditions does not make mammalian sex a spectrum. The existence of androgyny doesn't mean that nobody can ever tell the difference between men and women.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you think that's something I advocate for?

Seems to be. It would be a lot easier if you'd share your views rather than arguing against the views of other people, though.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Haha! That is 100% on the money.

When my boy #2 was four, he decided to let his hair grow long and have a ponytail. The kids at his kindergarten were convinced he was a girl.

Then, when my next boy was about the same age, he met my daughter's friend, who was a girl with short hair. He thought she was a boy, which got funnier when several years later she transitioned to male.

Oh gosh! The fact that pre-pubescent young children don't have distinct sexually dimorphic characteristics is totally support for the argument that humans are unable to generally tell the difference between male adults and female adults!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Men: we feel uncomfortable and unsafe and oppressed
Trans allies: oh you poor dears, we must bend reality to give you comfort
Women: we feel uncomfortable and unsafe and oppressed
Trans allies: terfs! haters! get back in your box!

On that note...

Males: We feel like we're lesbians trapped in a man's body!
Trans Allies: Oh you poor dears, we'll make sure you get counted as a lesbian.
Lesbians: Um... no, we don't want to have sex with you, we don't care for dick.
Trans Allies: Horrible evil transphobe! You must not be a real lesbian, a real lesbian would want to have sex with other women even if they did have a penis!

 

[Emily's Cat]

I always thought that "lesbian trapped in a man's body" bit was intended as comedy. Turns out a lot of other people took it as a recommendation.