Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

Mumbles said:
Anyway, why do these police think that rioting, looting, vandalizing, etc. is right?

Like I said, every time, these are all cop riots, and that's exactly why people are protesting. If the cops would just calm down and stop turning violent at random, Beating people, firing explosives wildly, etc., folks wouldn't be marching in the first place. But they insist, so folks have gone from "reform" to "defund".
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Eh, look at the tactics the rioters are using. Slashing tires? No, they're burning police cars, police stations, trying to blind people with lasers.
 
Emily's Cat said:
As far as sending in "regular servicemen" I'm going to assume you're referring to active duty military personnel?
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Whoops. English is my second language, so slipups happen from time to time. The Norwegian word for 'serviceman' is used to refer to police more often than to soldiers. My bad for being unintentionally misleading :o .
 
Puppycow said:
Eh, look at the tactics the rioters are using. Slashing tires? No, they're burning police cars, police stations, trying to blind people with lasers.
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Thank goodness none of that was happening that night, then.

Would you like to try again?
 
Puppycow said:
Eh, look at the tactics the rioters are using. Slashing tires? No, they're burning police cars, police stations, trying to blind people with lasers.
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This is all after they were hit with violent resistance first. The exceptions were not protesters, they were a different group.
 
I am getting extremely tired of people who live nowhere near Portland and have no familiarity with the place presuming that they have a clue about what's going on here.

Doing things like chanting "Every city, every town burn the precinct to the ground." And then blocking the doors and lighting fires directly in front of wooden paneling while there are people inside is seriously NOT ok. Nor for that matter is inventing fictions about how all the unrest is due to the mayor's actions, inactions, or some obscene mischaracterization of "Antifa".
 
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The New York Times confirms that Antifa is, in fact, a thing:

Abolish the Police? Those Who Survived the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

Antifa, which stands for anti-fascist, is a radical, leaderless leftist political movement that uses armed, violent protest as a method to create what supporters say is a more just and equitable country. They have a strong presence in the Pacific Northwest, including the current protests in Portland.
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The story is about a gay immigrant of color being harangued by "Young white men wielding guns":
SEATTLE — Faizel Khan was being told by the news media and his own mayor that the protests in his hometown were peaceful, with “a block party atmosphere.”

But that was not what he saw through the windows of his Seattle coffee shop. He saw encampments overtaking the sidewalks. He saw roving bands of masked protesters smashing windows and looting.

Young white men wielding guns would harangue customers as well as Mr. Khan, a gay man of Middle Eastern descent who moved here from Texas so he could more comfortably be out. To get into his coffee shop, he sometimes had to seek the permission of self-appointed armed guards to cross a border they had erected.

“They barricaded us all in here,” Mr. Khan said. “And they were sitting in lawn chairs with guns.”

For 23 days in June, about six blocks in the city’s Capitol Hill neighborhood were claimed by left-wing demonstrators and declared police-free. Protesters hailed it as liberation — from police oppression, from white supremacy — and a catalyst for a national movement.
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Now a group of local businesses owners — including a locksmith, the owner of a tattoo parlor, a mechanic, the owners of a Mexican restaurant and Mr. Khan — is suing the city. The lawsuit claims that “Seattle’s unprecedented decision to abandon and close off an entire city neighborhood, leaving it unchecked by the police, unserved by fire and emergency health services, and inaccessible to the public” resulted in enormous property damage and lost revenue.
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The economic losses that businesses suffered during the recent tumult are significant: One community relief fund in Minneapolis, where early protests included vandalism and arson, has raised $9 million for businesses along the Lake Street corridor, a largely Latino and East African business district. “We asked the small businesses what they needed to cover the damage that insurance wasn’t paying, and the gap was around $200 million,” said Allison Sharkey, the executive director of the Lake Street Council, which is organizing the fund. Her own office, between a crafts market and a Native American support center, was burned down in the protests.
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Disingenuous to say that the protests included vandalism and arson, no? The protests were used as cover by arsonists and vandals, that doesn't make the protesters arsonists and vandals.
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
Disingenuous to say that the protests included vandalism and arson, no? The protests were used as cover by arsonists and vandals, that doesn't make the protesters arsonists and vandals.
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Well the two things seem to go hand in hand. I'm not claiming all protesters were arsonists and vandals but as you say "The protests were used as cover by arsonists and vandals" so is there not some responsibility there? In many cases (like the "wall of moms") the so-called peaceful protesters were protecting those who were committing violence. I've seen people at the protest attack people who were filming the acts of violence.

If you go to a protest and you notice that others there with you are committing violence and vandalism, what do you do?
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
Disingenuous to say that the protests included vandalism and arson, no? The protests were used as cover by arsonists and vandals, that doesn't make the protesters arsonists and vandals.
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There are massive protests with many thousands of people in Portland at places like Pioneer Square and Revolution Hall where nobody gets arrested and people get a chance to listen to activists and ideas about police reform. Then there are the late-night riots when the wall of moms and other "peaceful protesters" where everybody knows perfectly well that in their midst are people firing roman candles at the police, shooting them with pellet guns, throwing various things at them, blinding them with laser pointers, throwing Molotov cocktails, and so on. When they are successful at breaching the building security measures and they get inside, they are not there to take over the building, they immediately set fires inside the building with over 250 souls inside.
People on this forum express their deep dismay and concern that there is a security perimeter fence around this building because it is blocking the bike lane. They make light of the fires and the use of accelerants. There is no other purpose or motivation for being there other than having a physical confrontation with the police.
 
Puppycow said:
Well the two things seem to go hand in hand. I'm not claiming all protesters were arsonists and vandals but as you say "The protests were used as cover by arsonists and vandals" so is there not some responsibility there? In many cases (like the "wall of moms") the so-called peaceful protesters were protecting those who were committing violence. I've seen people at the protest attack people who were filming the acts of violence.

If you go to a protest and you notice that others there with you are committing violence and vandalism, what do you do?
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What should you do?

And is the presence of looters and vandals the fault of the protesters?
 
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johnny karate said:
What should you do?

And is the presence of looters and vandals the fault of the protesters?
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johnny karate said:
Is it your claim that the protesters as a whole are covering for the looters and vandals?
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I think portlandatheist covered the distinction above. There are two kinds of protests. One is peaceful. This usually happens during daytime. People come, they march, they give speeches and they go home. The other kind happens at night and involves more violent people. If you want to avoid associating yourself with the looters, vandals and arsonists, go to the first kind of protest, not the second one.
 
Puppycow said:
I think portlandatheist covered the distinction above. There are two kinds of protests. One is peaceful. This usually happens during daytime. People come, they march, they give speeches and they go home. The other kind happens at night and involves more violent people. If you want to avoid associating yourself with the looters, vandals and arsonists, go to the first kind of protest, not the second one.
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"I care about this issue, but not enough to do any due diligence to see if the way I'm participating is hurting or helping" seems to fit with our culture.
 
‘Lives hang in balance’ from ‘planned coordinated attacks’

Remarks from the mayor of Portland.

PORTLAND, Ore. (KOIN) — Mayor Ted Wheeler was blunt at a Thursday afternoon press conference.

“When you commit arson with an accelerant in an attempt to burn down a building that is occupied by people that you have intentionally trapped inside, you are not demonstrating,” he said, “You are attempting to commit murder.”

Wheeler and PPB Chief Chuck Lovell held a joint press conference after Portland police declared another riot after a mob attacked the East Precinct building, tore off boards, set fire to plywood using an accelerant, shattered the glass doors and blocked exits.

Eight people were arrested, including 2 from other states, Kentucky and Minnesota.

If you don’t want to be part of the intentional violence, the mayor said, stay away.
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Doesn't mean you can't march peacefully during the day, just stay away from the organized riots happening each night.
 
Puppycow said:
I think portlandatheist covered the distinction above. There are two kinds of protests. One is peaceful. This usually happens during daytime. People come, they march, they give speeches and they go home. The other kind happens at night and involves more violent people. If you want to avoid associating yourself with the looters, vandals and arsonists, go to the first kind of protest, not the second one.
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Why should protesters have their freedom of assembly infringed upon? Why should they be held accountable for the actions of other people who are uninvited and over whom they have no control?
 
johnny karate said:
Why should protesters have their freedom of assembly infringed upon? Why should they be held accountable for the actions of other people who are uninvited and over whom they have no control?
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Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?

"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police. Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.
 
Puppycow said:
Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?

"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police. Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.
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Don't you dare apply logic to this equation.
 
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