Our values at any given moment are strongly shaped by our leadership. Think of how most of the country, for better or worse, rallied behind George Bush after 9/11. If the President, any President, had gone to the American people in February and said "We are all threatened by this new and deadly disease, and as Americans we have an obligation to do everything we can to protect one another," and he had said it while wearing a red, white and blue "freedom mask," all that followed would have been different. Today we might be where Germany or South Korea are. When the current President said "This is nothing, everything is under control, it wlll all disappear," a lot of people believed him. And here we are.
Cont: The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2
- Thread starter newyorkguy
- Start date
-
- Tags
- coronavirus
- Status
Our values at any given moment are strongly shaped by our leadership. Think of how most of the country, for better or worse, rallied behind George Bush after 9/11. If the President, any President, had gone to the American people in February and said "We are all threatened by this new and deadly disease, and as Americans we have an obligation to do everything we can to protect one another," and he had said it while wearing a red, white and blue "freedom mask," all that followed would have been different. Today we might be where Germany or South Korea are. When the current President said "This is nothing, everything is under control, it wlll all disappear," a lot of people believed him. And here we are.
It's a link and statement took directly from the cdc website your saying cdc is wrong?
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
Very well summed up. trump's lack of leadership is really shocking. Even one of the Koch brothers has bailed on him and for that very reason: his style of leadership. History will not be kind to trump, I don't think.
Attachments
Safe-Keeper
My avatar is not a Drumpf hat
Very true.
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2016
- Messages
- 6,416
At no point did they dispute the data.
They disputed your interpretation of the data.
Based on your not seeming to comprehend that explicitly stated point, the possibility you failed to comprehend some very complex data seems eminently plausible.
ETA: keep in mind I haven't even dug back to see who is on which side of whatever is being disagreed, but just pointing out nobody denied the data itself by my reading.
Last edited:
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
The difference is so glaringly obvious, that if someone actually needs to have it explained to them, you're probably just wasting your time.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Why didn't Obama have a vaccine ready for this?
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Absolutely. And he is still lying to us. Just yesterday he claimed the virus is disappearing with an average of 1,000 Americans dying every day of Covid 19 and 10,000 dying in just 10 days. On Thursday, 2,060 Americans died, the highest number of deaths since May 7. But it's 'disappearing'. His message has been a lie. A lie that has killed people and continues to kill people. We see it here in this very thread by posters who do not believe it is any more serious than the flu secure in their ignorance backed by Trump. Anyone trying to educate them is just wasting their time.
Safe-Keeper
My avatar is not a Drumpf hat
I've long since given up on rational discussion. I'll give everyone a shot, but when they start deflecting, trolling, insulting everyone who disagrees, whining about fake news, or posting whataboutisms, or the other typical 'control the conversation' behaviour that's the trumpkins' trademark, I just stop responding.
In a game of prisoner's dilemma, I believe in starting out generous, and then applying reciprocity -- cooperate when cooperated with, betray when betrayed. When someone is just there to troll or create noise, I ignore them until they start contributing, if they ever do.
The obvious downside is that if everyone did this, the trumpkins would never hear the counter-arguments they desperately need to hear, and far fewer of them would be converted. Also, I know there's something to be said for responding for the audience' sake. It's just that with creationists, CTers, and other clowns, you can usually have some kind of conversation with them, even if it just means having to repeat the same facts and arguments over and over, or debunking outlandish blogs and YouTube videos. Trumpkins don't even seem to want to have a conversation much of the time, it's just noise meant to shut down the conversation everyone else tries to have.
Safe-Keeper
My avatar is not a Drumpf hat
Because he's a muslim, obviously.
Elagabalus
Philosopher
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2013
- Messages
- 7,051
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
All he does is lie, lie, lie. He is a disgrace. Dr. Lee and the others are right: he is a danger to the American people and some are just too stupid to see it.
It was a simple statement 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.
What is there to dispute?
So what? What is the point you are trying to make? Over 700,000 people have died and at least 20,000,000 have gotten sick from a disease that did not exist before January. Everybody dies. The fact that somebody has some other health condition (and depending on how you define it, that might include most of us) doesn't mean that he would have died when he did anyway if he hadn't contracted covid. If somebody who is old or obese dies 10 or 20 years earlier than he would have otherwise, you don't see that as a problem? If five 747s were crashing every day, would you see that as a problem?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
Again, what is the point you are trying so desperately to make?
Last edited:
You don’t know if they would have died later or sooner with out covid that’s the problem!
Last edited:
Sooner? You think covid keeps some people alive longer? Now you're just being ridiculous.
In any large group of people during any specified time, actuaries and scientists can predict how many people will die of heart disease, cancer, strokes, accidents etc. Excess deaths is the number of deaths above the standard predictions. This can be measured pretty effectively, and the general consensus is that the covid death count is lower than it should be because some covid deaths are being attributed to other causes.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/15/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries
We know how many people are dying of covid. It's a lot. And again, you refuse to grasp that death is not the only severe outcome of a covid infection.
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
I understand the argument, it's about minimizing the number of deaths due to the pandemic. If only 6% of the deaths list Covid-19 as the only cause then divide the 160,000 figure by 6% and you get 9,600. Thus proving Covid-19 is an especially mild form of flu. Why then are we shutting down?
The problem is, it doesn't work that way. For instance, if someone gets Covid-19, develops pneumonia and succumbs, pneumonia will be listed as a cause. Except without them having had coronavirus there's no pneumonia. Someone has Covid-19 and, as is common, it gets into their lungs, they are unable to breath properly and pass away. Respiratory failure is likely to be listed as a cause. Again, without Covid-19 the person would have been unlikely to have suddenly developed respiratory failure.
Common sense tells you, if you read and listen to everything CDC has been saying, if there is one agency that is NOT downplaying the seriousness of this pandemic, that agency is CDC.
Look at the CDC chart below. The number of deaths expected in the U.S. based on statistical models. The number of expected deaths has become fairly predictable. The tan line represents the number of expected deaths based on the statistical model. Look what began to happen in April 2020. Here is a link to the chart. You have to scroll down the page to see it. If you point your cursor at a bar you get a popup telling you the percentage of deaths in excess of the expected number based on statistical models. They're anywhere from 5% to 15% above normal.
The problem is, it doesn't work that way. For instance, if someone gets Covid-19, develops pneumonia and succumbs, pneumonia will be listed as a cause. Except without them having had coronavirus there's no pneumonia. Someone has Covid-19 and, as is common, it gets into their lungs, they are unable to breath properly and pass away. Respiratory failure is likely to be listed as a cause. Again, without Covid-19 the person would have been unlikely to have suddenly developed respiratory failure.
Common sense tells you, if you read and listen to everything CDC has been saying, if there is one agency that is NOT downplaying the seriousness of this pandemic, that agency is CDC.
Look at the CDC chart below. The number of deaths expected in the U.S. based on statistical models. The number of expected deaths has become fairly predictable. The tan line represents the number of expected deaths based on the statistical model. Look what began to happen in April 2020. Here is a link to the chart. You have to scroll down the page to see it. If you point your cursor at a bar you get a popup telling you the percentage of deaths in excess of the expected number based on statistical models. They're anywhere from 5% to 15% above normal.
Attachments
Last edited:
That’s not what I said
It states on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.
Download the chart it’s very easy to read
Modified
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2006
- Messages
- 6,985
Right, the question is why the number mentioning only Covid is 6% and not zero. You don't die from a virus, you have some sort of organ failure as a result of its effects, or as a result of your immune response.
- Status