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L. Ron Hubbard made racist comments.

Clutch Cargo said:
Well, you did leave out the most important attributes:

a). Relieving you of your life-savings.
b). Cutting all ties with everyone in your life.
c). Answering the question about the meaning of life with some monster from outer space from whence we all derive.
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I think I covered A and B in "as close to evil as a thing can become," but I agree that those are some of the attributes that make it evil.

As regards C, I don't think I can agree that it (on its own) is particularly bad. As far as I'm concerned, basic christianity requires accepting a whole bunch of equally insane premises. And then there are the Mormons, whose own religious mythology is disproved by contemporary first-hand reports from the time. (My own born religion, Judaism, also requires one to believe some outrageous nonsense - much of it disproven by archeology, geology, biology, and math.)

Still, I know plenty of Jews, Mormons, Christians, Muslims, Hindus and spiritualists who are, in general, leading wonderful and upstanding lives. They're basically moral, law-abiding, dependable, and whatever else you want to throw in there. So, I don't think the Scientology backstory (as ******* insane as it is) really disqualifies the cult from being a generally moral religion.

It is what Scientology does with the Xenu story that disqualifies it. It weaponizes it to make adherents believe that any adversity they encounter is their own fault - that they have not done enough to clear the evil engrams that bring misery upon them. This includes everything from not being able to pay for more courses to surviving child sexual abuse. That's where it becomes whatever the atheist equivalent for "evil" may be.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Surely there are three levels of membership:

1. Members of the Sea Org who are treated like slaves.

2. Ordinary sheep in the process (sic) of being fleeced on their way to the never successful effort to become Clear.

3. The elite who have bought into LRon's crap and who have societal status and wealth to make them useful idiots in supporting the upper echelons (Miscavige and his cronies).
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I have given your contribution some consideration, scrutinized each and every line, and I really, truly, honestly do not believe that anyone could add anything that would improve the slightest insight into Scientology (as definition) or to its workings (in practice). Is there someone close to you who is a Scientologist or are you perhaps an ex-Scientologist yourself? :idea:
 
Loss Leader said:
…… As regards C, I don't think I can agree that it (on its own) is particularly bad. As far as I'm concerned, basic christianity requires accepting a whole bunch of equally insane premises. And then there are the Mormons, whose own religious mythology is disproved by contemporary first-hand reports from the time. (My own born religion, Judaism, also requires one to believe some outrageous nonsense - much of it disproven by archeology, geology, biology, and math.)
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I am not prasiing any religious docrine. The subject is Scientology and so I have said what I think about it. As far as the other religions you mentiion … I also agree.

Loss Leader said:
Still, I know plenty of Jews, Mormons, Christians, Muslims, Hindus and spiritualists who are, in general, leading wonderful and upstanding lives. They're basically moral, law-abiding, dependable, and whatever else you want to throw in there. So, I don't think the Scientology backstory (as ******* insane as it is) really disqualifies the cult from being a generally moral religion.
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I’m not sure what you want to tell me but we can draw a line in the sand on one point, that being that Scientology is not really a religion at all. Revealing (in the last step) some mongo jango is nothing at all like Judaeo-Christo-Islamo who “pray” or otherwise communicate with their G_d, Lord, or Allah.

Loss Leader said:
It is what Scientology does with the Xenu story that disqualifies it. It weaponizes it to make adherents believe that any adversity they encounter is their own fault - that they have not done enough to clear the evil engrams that bring misery upon them. This includes everything from not being able to pay for more courses to surviving child sexual abuse. That's where it becomes whatever the atheist equivalent for "evil" may be.
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But don’t the big three also blame world inhabitants for their suffering on earth? Sin and lack of conversion are keeping humanity from the pearly gates, we are told.
 
Clutch Cargo said:
But don’t the big three also blame world inhabitants for their suffering on earth? Sin and lack of conversion are keeping humanity from the pearly gates, we are told.
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Certainly not my religion. We don't even have a concept of heaven or hell, really. You just live as a community, sometimes bad things happen, and then you die and are with God.

Christianity, to my knowledge, has a more personal idea of a God that judges you, but he still judges you largely based on your situation. Mainstream christians don't think children are just short adults. They don't think they bring child rape upon themselves by not working hard enough. And they all generally value family (with some sad exceptions like the Mormon reaction of gay relationships). None of them, except the cult like few, recommend cutting oneself off entirely from non-believers, even if the literal world of the Bible actually says to.

Shintoists, Spiritualists, Buddhists, Animists, etc. have an even looser connection in many cases to a straightforward reward system. In Scientology, one isn't supposed to report being raped to authorities if one's rapist is a paying member of the religion.

There are cults based in all of these religions, but they amount to a small percentage of the adherents overall. In any case, I can only speak with authority about Conservative Judaism.
 
Loss Leader said:
Certainly not my religion. We don't even have a concept of heaven or hell, really. You just live as a community, sometimes bad things happen, and then you die and are with God.

Christianity, to my knowledge, has a more personal idea of a God that judges you, but he still judges you largely based on your situation. Mainstream christians don't think children are just short adults. They don't think they bring child rape upon themselves by not working hard enough. And they all generally value family (with some sad exceptions like the Mormon reaction of gay relationships). None of them, except the cult like few, recommend cutting oneself off entirely from non-believers, even if the literal world of the Bible actually says to.

Shintoists, Spiritualists, Buddhists, Animists, etc. have an even looser connection in many cases to a straightforward reward system. In Scientology, one isn't supposed to report being raped to authorities if one's rapist is a paying member of the religion.

There are cults based in all of these religions, but they amount to a small percentage of the adherents overall. In any case, I can only speak with authority about Conservative Judaism.
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So you are saying that it is only Scientology that puts the blame of **** (read 'whatever') on humanity.
 
Clutch Cargo said:
I have given your contribution some consideration, scrutinized each and every line, and I really, truly, honestly do not believe that anyone could add anything that would improve the slightest insight into Scientology (as definition) or to its workings (in practice). Is there someone close to you who is a Scientologist or are you perhaps an ex-Scientologist yourself? :idea:
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Thanks for the praise. We only serve to help. :th:

I'm not sure when I became interested in Scientology but it was certainly some decades ago. I was never, ever, a believer. Indeed I was a non-believer in Dianetics before there was a Scientology. I probably first heard about it via Martin Gardner's Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science as excerpted here: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/gardner/

I was "there" for the Great War with Scientology on Usenet see: Scientology_and_the_InternetWP but my only real claim to fame is that I am a Skeptic with a capital S.
 
This is the weirdest argument I've seen on this board in a long time. Disclaimer: I stay out of Trials and Errors because of how weird the arguments get in there.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Thanks for the praise. We only serve to help. :th:

I'm not sure when I became interested in Scientology but it was certainly some decades ago. I was never, ever, a believer. Indeed I was a non-believer in Dianetics before there was a Scientology. I probably first heard about it via Martin Gardner's Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science as excerpted here: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/gardner/

I was "there" for the Great War with Scientology on Usenet see: Scientology_and_the_InternetWP but my only real claim to fame is that I am a Skeptic with a capital S.
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It was in 1974 while hitch-hiking around the world when I teamed up with another hitch-hiker that I met in some godforsaken hole in the desert with almost no traffic and we spent the first part of that night under a bridge in a thunder storm with a lit candle to draw attention to our outstretched thumbs. It worked! My day’s destination was his ultimate goal. He was a Scientologist on his way to work for another Scientologist fellow who was hiring pieceworkers. Making the long story short, I was asked if I wanted to work for him to make some fast money. I was running low on funds and figured it wasn’t a bad idea. There were about 20 employees and all but about 3 or 4 of us were not Scientologists. The work was good, requiring quality output, and the hours were completely up to me. I was only asked once if I wanted to come along to one of their Scientology meetings to which I politely declined. The only time I was in any way negatively impressed is when it was discovered that someone had been pilfering the supplies and everyone was required to hold two tin cans – you know what I mean. The only questions I remember being asked was if I had ever taken drugs, was I now under the influence of drugs, and had I stolen anything. 15 minutes, and then back to work. I had a temporary problem with a co-worker who was cluttering my workspace but all I had to do was consult the “Hubbard” bible and found the term “developed traffic” or “Dev T” as it was more commonly referred to. I told the worker that he was causing “Dev T” and the problem was immediately solved.

My impression (as a mild observer) was positive so either I didn’t understand very much or perhaps the nastiness - that certainly is Scientology - has developed since my experience so long ago.
 
Clutch Cargo said:
Read again with the inteded and now corrected punctuation.

"So you are saying that it is only Scientology that puts the blame of **** (read 'whatever') on humanity?"
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I didn't say that. I don't know what you're talking about. I said that Scientology tells adherents that they are attracting bad things with their own negative feelings, like their own rapes.

You said, "But don’t the big three also blame world inhabitants for their suffering on earth? Sin and lack of conversion are keeping humanity from the pearly gates, we are told."

I gave you plenty of other religions that don't blame earthly suffering on the bad thoughts or even bad actions on their believers, though some also do (including some cults that count themselves "within" a larger religion, like Warren Jeffs' FLDS). You responded by saying, "So you are saying that it is only Scientology that puts the blame of **** (read 'whatever') on humanity?"

No. I am not saying that. I never said that. I said, and I repeat, "Plenty of other religions don't blame earthly suffering on the bad thoughts or even bad actions on their believers, though some also do."

I have no idea why you would throw in this "only" word that I never used, never implied, and cannot logically be inferred by anything I wrote. Scientology is terrible. Many other religions are terrible. Many other small religious secs and/or other cults are terrible. Some aren't.

And I still don't know what this thread is about.
 
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