Non-binary identities are valid

[Emily's Cat]

Yep. And some of them are not even related to it. Let's look at this one...

"Do you wish that the people in your life would treat you the same way they treat males..."

As a female in the business world, I sure as hell would like to be treated the same way that men are treated. That in no way indicates that I have gender dysphoria.

It seems absurd that there's no way to get "you don't have it" as a result.

 

[arthwollipot]

I think it is a bit naive to make that assumption, especially if we are going beyond easily identifiable gendered pronouns to more idiosyncratic ones...

At the end of the day it would take an extremely good reason to have to remember to call different people "eir", "pers", "vis" or "xyr"...

And again, while there are people who will want you to use idiosyncratic pronouns, they are going to be a minority, and I'm willing to bet that if you forget their particular pronoun, "they" will be perfectly acceptable.

However, if you are being reminded of their pronoun every time you use the wrong one, then you're going to remember it after the sixth or seventh time. Or the ninth. If you haven't remembered it by then, then perhaps it's not your memory that's the issue.

 

[angrysoba]

And again, while there are people who will want you to use idiosyncratic pronouns, they are going to be a minority, and I'm willing to bet that if you forget their particular pronoun, "they" will be perfectly acceptable.

However, if you are being reminded of their pronoun every time you use the wrong one, then you're going to remember it after the sixth or seventh time. Or the ninth. If you haven't remembered it by then, then perhaps it's not your memory that's the issue.

Probably not. Extreme idiosyncrasy in a person tends to put them at odds with society in general. There were some experiments that were once done by a team of researchers which they called Breaching Experiments, in which they did things like sit down on an almost empty subway car right next to the only passenger on it to show that there are "invisible" social rules that people tend to abide by even if they are not usually conscious they exist. Coming up with a completely idiosyncratic pronoun seems to be along those lines. Sure, maybe there is a certain arbitrariness about pronouns, and there is room for improvement, but what you are advocating is a tough sell. We might use the term "personal pronoun", but they are not actually personal at all. They are meant to be socially understood.

I have said that I think there is a case for a gender-neutral singular pronoun, and I have agreed with Squeegee Beckenheim's reservations about it being "they". But again, that would be a publicly, or socially bought-into change in the language, just like Ms has replaced Mrs and Miss. Similarly, I can get behind the idea of creating a gender-neutral title (is there one? I haven't checked), but having idiosyncratic ones also detracts from the particular use that they are supposed to be put to.

 

[arthwollipot]

I have said that I think there is a case for a gender-neutral singular pronoun, and I have agreed with Squeegee Beckenheim's reservations about it being "they". But again, that would be a publicly, or socially bought-into change in the language, just like Ms has replaced Mrs and Miss. Similarly, I can get behind the idea of creating a gender-neutral title (is there one? I haven't checked), but having idiosyncratic ones also detracts from the particular use that they are supposed to be put to.

You're too late. They/them has already been accepted into the language as a gender neutral pronoun, particularly in the nonbinary/genderfluid community. No other idiosyncratic pronoun has achieved as much general widespread acceptance as they/them has.

There are plenty of gender neutral titles, by the way. Off the top of my head I an think of three: Doctor, Professor, and The Honourable. There are probably others. But I ask this: what purpose does a title serve? In the case of the three mentioned, they indicate a position of authority. But what purpose do Mr and Mrs serve that cannot be served by simply using the person's name?

 

[angrysoba]

You're too late.

RATS! Foiled again in whatever dastardly plan you think I am responsible for!

They/them has already been accepted into the language...

Well, yes it has. I think there have been umpteen threads on this very forum as well as elsewhere in which I have said that they/them is a perfectly ordinary pronoun to use as a singular gender-neutral pronoun.

However, it is notable that it works much better in some constructions rather than others, and that while it might trip off the tongue in a situation where the gender is unknown or the number is irrelevant such as "If someone comes in, tell them I am busy" but it does not do so easily in the examples Squeegee gave where number becomes confusing.

as a gender neutral pronoun, particularly in the nonbinary/genderfluid community. No other idiosyncratic pronoun has achieved as much general widespread acceptance as they/them has.

That's right, and that is mostly because it is already in common use, sounds natural (in some contexts) and has been for a long time.

But it is difficult to overhaul very common words in the English language in a way that gains widespread acceptance. Titles such as Ms, are fairly low-frequency words so they are not a major mental imposition, but pronouns are used everyday by everyone, often several times in a sentence, and they come with challenges of subject-verb agreement. I mean it is bad enough for some people who have been mistaught that they need to always say "you and I" instead of the far more natural, and in many cases actually correct, "you and me". To get prescriptive about pronoun use in the way that you argue is way, way more onerous than you seem to realize!

Yes,

There are plenty of gender neutral titles, by the way. Off the top of my head I an think of three: Doctor, Professor, and The Honourable. There are probably others. But I ask this: what purpose does a title serve? In the case of the three mentioned, they indicate a position of authority. But what purpose do Mr and Mrs serve that cannot be served by simply using the person's name?

Actually, I looked it up. Apparently, the one gaining most currency, particularly in the UK, is Mx (pronounced "Miks" or "Muks"?). Okay, I can go with that.

What purpose does it have? It's an honorific. It signals respect to the person being addressed. I think also that if we do not know the gender of the person being spoken to, maybe we need one that replaces Sir or Madam. I don't know what that is either.

 

[Lupus]

Go to the gender critical saidit page to learn about what evil people trans rights activists are.

 

[Manger Douse]

Go to the gender critical saidit page to learn about what evil people trans rights activists are.

The woke bros and Reddit HQ banned it because talking about TRA abuse is apparently worse than committing it

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Similarly, I can get behind the idea of creating a gender-neutral title (is there one? I haven't checked)

Mx

Which, I suppose, puts another tick in the "xe" column.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

You're too late. They/them has already been accepted into the language as a gender neutral pronoun, particularly in the nonbinary/genderfluid community.

While this is true, I think we're more on the cusp of a point of no return than we are having gone past it.

I think that if something were popularised by some shiny new piece of media,* or something were coined that just seemed "right" (unlikely, for the reasons I've already gone in to at length), then there's time for the scrappy upstart to take over.

But what purpose do Mr and Mrs serve that cannot be served by simply using the person's name?

It's a polite way of addressing people you don't know in formal situations.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think many of our society's customs around politeness are silly (I'll never understand why in order to work in an office you have to be dressed in a certain way, for example), it would also be silly to suggest that they don't exist.

*And I'm genuinely serious about this. There are everyday words and saying that come from TV shows, films, and music: Poindexter, spam, nimrod, gaslighting, catfishing, meh, stan, omnishambles, bucket list, plonker, for the win, regifting, Debbie Downer, and so on. It's not unthinkable that a piece of media that had its own gender neutral pronouns would catch the public imagination, and then certain journalists could start using the terms, too, and from there it just escalates.

I think it's possible. Unlikely at this stage, but possible.

 

[cullennz]

Mx



Which, I suppose, puts another tick in the "xe" column.

How are you even supposed to pronounce these silly made up terms no one will end up using?

Guessing Xe is "zee"?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

How are you even supposed to pronounce these silly made up terms no one will end up using?

Well, firstly, all terms are "made up".

And you might just mean that it didn't evolve organically but was instead specifically coined, but that's just as silly, because so were lots of words that I'm guessing you don't have a problem with, like: eyeball, meme, boredom, chortle, rampage, robot,* robotics,* twitter (the sound, not the social media platform), beep, blurb, cyberspace, debunk, factoid, litterbug, workaholic, serendipity, feminist, scientist, butterfingers, pedestrian, and even international.

But perhaps I've missed your posts about how silly the name of this website is because it uses a "made up term".

Secondly, if you'd read even the first paragraph of the link, you'd see that "Mx" is actually used widely in the UK. It's used by the government, the majority of banks, and many other businesses and institutions, especially the biggest.

Guessing Xe is "zee"?

Yup.

*By two separate authors; Karel Čapek and Isaac Asimov, respectively.

 

[cullennz]

I did read the link. That is why I asked. There are about 6 pronunciations listed.

And I don't really care if some people use it in the UK. I don't live there.

 

[cullennz]

The other weird thing about the thinking behind these stupid pronouns is apparently they are supposed to neutralise gender differentiation. But the only people who will probably use them are trans. So they might as well walk round with a t-shirt saying. "See the Mx? My gender is anonymous!"

Other persons thought. "Yeah. Obviously over sensitive trans"

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I did read the link. That is why I asked. There are about 6 pronunciations listed.

And I don't really care if some people use it in the UK. I don't live there.

Ah, so when you said "no one will end up using" there was an implied parochial "except in countries other than mine"?

I suppose that New Zealand doesn't count, either?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The other weird thing about the thinking behind these stupid pronouns is apparently they are supposed to neutralise gender differentiation.

What they're supposed to do is give non-binary people and people who don't want to reveal their gender an honorific they can use.

But the only people who will probably use them are trans.

Do you mean non-binary? Trans people are not non-binary.

Other persons thought. "Yeah. Obviously over sensitive trans"

Only people who don't know the meaning of the word "trans".

 

[cullennz]

Ah, so when you said "no one will end up using" there was an implied parochial "except in countries other than mine"?



I suppose that New Zealand doesn't count, either?

No one will use it. Except maybe a handful.

 

[cullennz]

What they're supposed to do is give non-binary people and people who don't want to reveal their gender an honorific they can use.







Do you mean non-binary? Trans people are not non-binary.







Only people who don't know the meaning of the word "trans".

I literally don't care.

Be non binary. I don't care. Some people obviously can't be ***** working out what they are.

Just don't expect me to make an effort to pander to laziness.

 

[d4m10n]

Trans people are not non-binary.

Not always true according to the relevant wiki:

Non-binary identities can fall under the transgender umbrella, since many non-binary people identify with a gender that is different from their assigned sex.

It gets somewhat more complicated from there, with some folks having two or more genders.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[angrysoba]

No one will use it. Except maybe a handful.

No one will use it, except those that do.

Actually, I predict that Mx will take-off. It's easy to implement, and maybe even have an advantage over Ms and Mr where it isn't clear what the gender is of the person they are sending correspondence to.

In a few years, you will probably start receiving advertisements and spam addressed to Mx cullennz.

 

[cullennz]

No one will use it, except those that do.



Actually, I predict that Mx will take-off. It's easy to implement, and maybe even have an advantage over Ms and Mr where it isn't clear what the gender is of the person they are sending correspondence to.



In a few years, you will probably start receiving advertisements and spam addressed to Mx cullennz.

Wouldn't worry me.

I get enough spam already. A bit more is no big deal.

I doubt Mx will take off here apart from a few sjws.

It is advertising the very thing they want to try to avoid.