English Should not be Compulsory in High School

[Loss Leader]

But more important was the ability to throw Latin terms into reports, proving simultaneously that I was both a Latin scholar and a smart arse.

As a lawyer, I was tempted to spam one's motions, memos, and speeches to courts and juries with all manner of Latin terms, After all, I paid a heck of a lot of money to learn them. I had to force myself to remember that I needed to write for comprehension. It doesn't help my case if the judge has to stop reading my motion to look up animus possidendi.

 

[jenspen]

Wow! People talking about Latin. Working my way through "Wheelock's Latin" has been a Covid19 stay-at-home project of mine - good for neurogenesis and I would like to be able to read Horace, Catullus and the other poets.

I didn't think the grammar would be such fun - it's like doing a cryptic crossword.

I don't know if it's going to do anything for my English but Latina est gaudium!

 

[Darat]

As a lawyer, I was tempted to spam one's motions, memos, and speeches to courts and juries with all manner of Latin terms, After all, I paid a heck of a lot of money to learn them. I had to force myself to remember that I needed to write for comprehension. It doesn't help my case if the judge has to stop reading my motion to look up animus possidendi.

There has been quite a push to drop the use of latin terms and phrases when there are good English alternates in the UK legal profession. Puto quod bonum est.

 

[Giordano]

I really think that a required, basic statistics course should be part of all curricula. People are confronted by all types of numerical information in their lives (involving polls, efficacy of medication, risks) and they need to have a basic understanding of statistical significance, etc. And, if they are thinking about playing the lottery, odds.

In my science education I had to take three calculus classes but only one, half semester, very basic statistics class. In my field (molecular biology) I’ve seldom needed advanced calculus but often needed to re-educate myself in statistical analysis. I wish I had been told to take a rigorous statistics class early in my academic life.

 

[Minoosh]

I have no idea what is being taught as "English" these days. When I was in school, it was 100% literature.

I have seen students stymied by having to write a traditional "5 paragraph essay" because their starting point was supposed to be making an argument about literature. I worked with special-ed students to come up with modified assignments when they ran into trouble. What I could do is find out what the students were interested in, then have them construct a "letter to the editor" or some such on why, for example, our town needed more skate parks. It was a revelation to them that they could write about something they were interested in.

They liked reading the literature, even enjoyed Shakespeare if it was presented accessibly, but they didn't have any real opinion about the material.

 

[Minoosh]

There has been quite a push to drop the use of latin terms and phrases when there are good English alternates in the UK legal profession. Puto quod bonum est.

Puto is a bad word in Spanish ... at least Mexican Spanish.

 

[Trebuchet]

Puto is a bad word in Spanish ... at least Mexican Spanish.

I'm familiar with puta. Would puto be a male prostitute?

I've taken to talking to my cats in high school Spanish, circa 1964.
Mi gatita es my bonita! Mi gatita tiene pies blancas! Mi gatita se llama Conejita!
Mi gatita es meowing at me right now and won't shut up.

I seem to remember more of high school Spanish than high school English.

 

[novaphile]

I'm familiar with puta. Would puto be a male prostitute?

I've taken to talking to my cats in high school Spanish, circa 1964.
Mi gatita es my bonita! Mi gatita tiene pies blancas! Mi gatita se llama Conejita!
Mi gatita es meowing at me right now and won't shut up.

I seem to remember more of high school Spanish than high school English.

Hmm... for some reason I now have a hankering for fettuccine puttanesca...

 

[Loss Leader]

Puto is a bad word in Spanish ... at least Mexican Spanish.

According to whatever I just read, Puto, meaning "I judge" or "I think" in Latin, and Puta, meaning "prostitute" in Spanish, are false cognates. There is some speculation that they may both originate in the same proto-Hindo-European root, but nobody can ever say for sure (because whatever that language was, it was before writing stuff down was invented).

It either originally meant "pure" or "boy." One can see how a boy could be considered pure or how something pure could be adopted to mean a child. Using whatever the hell logic Romans used, purity somehow indicated cognition. The other usage is more straightforward. Puto took an "a" to become puta for "a girl." And that became an insulting term for prostitute because #Feminism wasn't trending back then.

 

[Minoosh]

I think it is not like literally a male prostitute; rather an ***hole.

 

[Planigale]

We don't have a year 13 in the States, really. That is freshman/first year of college

Interestingly this is why England has 3 year degrees not four year degrees. "upper sixth" / Year 13 / A levels (usually 2 year courses in 3 subjects) are supposed to be equivalent to first year at university. In Scotland school is traditionally one year shorter and do not teach A levels (they do a one year sixth form course usually in more subjects called Highers) and university degrees are four years. If you did not do the right A levels and wanted to do medicine you would have to do '1st MB' year which was chemistry physics maths etc. If you had exempting A levels you went into '2nd MB' ie the second year of the six year medicine degree (remembering that medicine is an undergraduate degree in the UK).

 

[Vixen]

Mine was split "English language" and "English literature" and we had separate exams for both. The language section was about comprehension and structure of language and the lit was critical analysis of novels, stories, plays, poetry (yes they really did force us to deal with such obscenities) and so on.

Very surprised that maths isn't required in the last two years, that seems very strange.

Same here. I was lucky to have a reasonably well-know dramatist - although I didn't find this out until later - who really brought English literature alive which he read out in a theatrical actor's voice, albeit an authentic one - I laughed so hard at his rendition of Keith Waterhouse's Billy Liar that it's been one of my favourite books ever since. The usual English teachers just got us to go around the classroom, each reading out a few lines. I have to admit the appreciation of English literature gave me a lifelong love of it. Like many schoolkids, Chaucer and Shakespeare was a bit of a chore, I think you have to have a higher level of maturity to understand their depth and wit in their true form. For us, it was subject to mockery. 'Friends, Romans, country men, lend me your ears - ' 'Here you are then!' - boy at the back.

English language was composition, letter writing, précis and comprehension. Considered very easy.

Maths was considered difficult and a view which has existed into many people's adulthood. This is where people like me step in. I get paid handsomely for doing people's tax forms and annual accounts so I am not complaining. However, numbers are really nothing to be afraid of. A couple of extra years tuition and people should be confident enough to do their own calculations and even take pleasure in problem solving.

 

[Vixen]

Mathematicians need to be able to communicate well outside of mathematics. Non-mathematicians don't need to be able to communicate well inside of mathematics.

Improving fluency in at least one primary language should be part of any compulsory general education program, in my opinion. That, history, and civics.

That is so true. At school I was very much a languages person, excelling in English, French and German, good in biology, history, geography and chemistry and subjects like physics and maths took a back seat. In adulthood after my degree I took up accountancy. I was up against people with degrees in maths. I had a degree in psychology with a strong statistics element and that helped a lot. However, there were many aspects of the accountancy exams that had me headbanging and if the exams were mindbending for the maths graduates, it was a real teeth gnasher for me but hey, I had the upper hand in report writing, a key part of the final 'case study' exam as you had to have a thorough grasp of writing skills and so many accountancy students just wanted the numbers, so what I lacked at degree level maths, I made up for in language skills, being able to explain my recommendations concisely - you had to aim to score 1.5 marks every minute of the exam in order to pass - so exam practice revolved around being able to read and analyse huge amounts of data - up to ten or twelve pages long - and doing it all in a split second so that you could bang out a report of 4.5K words in three hours, as well as calculating all the relevant figures and producing graphs to illustrate, and being able to justify your recommendations based on the figures.

These days I am very much a maths person. I hate any administrative or secretarial parts of my job but am happy doing figures all day long. This is mystifying to others. When I was in insolvency practice, I had the lawyers and barristers coming to me asking to calculate ten percent for them (in one case) and I was happy for them to write up the dull lengthy petitions for the courts although I could do that as well but have no legal training. Law is pretty much like tax, just learning a bunch of rules. Doing figures is not the best part of accountancy, it is successfully running an enterprise which is the buzz. This is something you are unlikely to do well unless (a) you can do the maths, or (b) hire an expensive accountant to do it for you.

 

[Vixen]

Judging by the number of High School leavers I encounter every day in my business, both as clients and as job applicants, whose spelling, grammar and ability to write coherently is nothing short of atrocious, I completely disagree with your suggestion. In fact, if someone gives me a CV full of grammatical and spelling errors, I pretty much rule them out for employment before any other consideration.

If anything, the teaching of English language should be strengthened. IMO, at senior school levels English should be split into two separate subjects; Communications English (which should be compulsory) and English Literature (which could be optional).

What about the state of online newspapers? The grammar and syntax in the most popular tabloids are absolutely shocking. For example, 'was sat' or 'the Queen was wearing a check patterned coat' (for houndstooth). And one
or two sentences per paragraph. Thankfully, the broadsheets and the BBC are still well-written.

 

[Vixen]

When Algebra 2 gets around to factoring quadratic equations with complex roots, I secretly end up agreeing with the students that most will not use this stuff in "real life." Actually what trips them up more than anything else is arithmetic when it involves decimals or fractions.

I think Algebra 2 got started because by the freshman year of college most students could not remember anything from Algebra 1. It's mostly the same stuff.

If they want to go into manufacturing using raw materials, quadratic equations will be useful for calculating the limitations of stock say you have X number of one material and Y of another. The point on the graph, after you have calculated your X and Y axis where they cross will inform you of how many widgets you can make with your current stock.

 

[Vixen]

I don't know what planet you're from, or whether you've ever met a human teenager, but getting teens aged 16 - 18 to do something they don't want to do is pointless.

Far better we teach life & work skills.

I can say without any doubt that apart from languages, the only thing I learnt at high school that I've used in my life is typing. Maths/English/Chemistry/Biology/Physics, not one of them has served me any useful purpose in 45 years out of school.



Kids ought to have those basic reading and arithmetic skills at primary school.

We spend trillions of dollars on schools around the world, yet we turn out kids who don't know what a loan is, how interest works, and are completely lacking in life, sex, relationship and parenting skills.

Parents have proven pretty useless at teaching those things, and we have the little bastards held captive for 6 hours a day - why on earth aren't we using it wisely?



You can double it if you're learning French as well - the three languages are so interconnected that they all grow in unison. Stupid subject on its own, but very useful for linguists.

Surely chemistry has been useful to you of only for you to know the boiling point of water or that sugar or salt dissolves until it becomes a saturated solution. Or that sulphuric acid down your drain will clear limescale.

Biology, surely you now know all about why plants are green and what a cell is.

Physics, why your glasses help you see better. Mass and density. Displacement of liquid.

You are more inculcated from an early age than you even know.

 

[Roboramma]

I knew someone who refused to do English in Year 12, just didn't turn up to class.

In fact he refused to do anything except maths and science. The school said "without your ATAR you won't be able to get into University" and he contacted the universities directly and they said "How soon can you start?"

Of course he was exceptional in those subjects and other students can't follow this example, but I think, as long as that last year of high school is so critical to success in life, it should be open for people to decide that how to maximise those results, instead of there being this built in advantage for people who happen to be good at English.

After all, the educational system has had 11 years to teach good communication skills.

That sounds like an argument that universities shouldn't consider English grades when selecting applicants, not that it shouldn't be taught.

 

[angrysoba]

What about the state of online newspapers? The grammar and syntax in the most popular tabloids are absolutely shocking. For example, 'was sat' or 'the Queen was wearing a check patterned coat' (for houndstooth). And one
or two sentences per paragraph [sentence fragment]. Thankfully, the broadsheets and the BBC are still well-written.

I had to look up "houndstooth" as, shockingly, we were not taught it at school. I think English language English must already have been going to the dogs, by then.

 

[angrysoba]

Surely chemistry has been useful to you of only for you to know the boiling point of water or that sugar or salt dissolves until it becomes a saturated solution. Or that sulphuric acid down your drain will clear limescale.

Biology, surely you now know all about why plants are green and what a cell is.

Physics, why your glasses help you see better. Mass and density. Displacement of liquid.

You are more inculcated from an early age than you even know.

Surely, all those things would have been useful to the Atheist if he had made a kettle, rather than bought one. I mean, knowing the boiling point of water is probably not as useful as knowing that water is boiled when the switch is flipped. You don't have to learn the process of how sugar or salt is dissolved so much as being able to see it happen in your kitchen. If you have limescale, just buy one of those liquids that are made to unblock drains. If you wear glasses, buy them in the shop.

Do most of us really know this stuff?

 

[The Atheist]

Surely chemistry has been useful to you of only for you to know the boiling point of water or that sugar or salt dissolves until it becomes a saturated solution. Or that sulphuric acid down your drain will clear limescale.

Nope, not one of those things has been useful to me.

Water boil? I know it's boiled when the kettle switches off - the fact that it's 100C is no use to me whatsoever. I wouldn't put sulphuric acid down a drain for several reasons, chief of which is that it's a lot easier to buy a branded product.

Salt & sugar dissolving are things I'd known long before high school.

Biology, surely you now know all about why plants are green and what a cell is.

Completely unnecessary knowledge that has never served me any purpose. Also learnt long before high school.

Physics, why your glasses help you see better. Mass and density. Displacement of liquid.

More utterly worthless knowledge, and I've never had glasses. I use my telescope and microscope exactly the same as the bloke next door who never even studied physics.

You are more inculcated from an early age than you even know.

Just as well it's an English thread, or I'd be laughing at the word "inculcated". It's a classic example of a word that shouldn't be used, because it's pretentious nonsense that is never used in normal discourse. The only other time I've seen it used was by an Indian bloke keen to show off his English ability.