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Toledo Air Guard and Flight 93

more evidence against 9/11 truth delusional conspiracy theories

MaGZ said:
What are your thoughts fighters from Toledo's Air Guard shot down Flight 93?



Toledo's Air Guard called to defend U.S. on Sept. 11
http://web.archive.org/web/20060208...011209&Category=NEWS28&ArtNo=112090036&Ref=AR
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You posted proof why NORAD did not patrol or take action over the USA domestic air space, and you don't know it because you failed to read the article. You posted evidence for what happen on 9/11, and why the USAF did not have authorization, but relied on being asked by the FAA to help...

Why not read it first, and stop asking questions.

Were the fighters armed?

Plus you posted evidence for the 19 terrorists did 9/11 with four planes. You posted evidence against 9/11 truth.
 
The way I see it, shooting down Fight 93 would have been the right decision anyway. So I wonder what's really more useful to the conspiracy theory: That it happened, or that it didn't happen?
 
MaGZ said:
What are your thoughts fighters from Toledo's Air Guard shot down Flight 93?



Toledo's Air Guard called to defend U.S. on Sept. 11
http://web.archive.org/web/20060208...011209&Category=NEWS28&ArtNo=112090036&Ref=AR
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I think if one bothers to read the article in the link they would find a clear answer:

But, in explaining their mission, Colonel Marr said the Toledo jets "never had a track close enough that they were directed to engage."

"[But] if a valid direction had come from the appropriate level to engage a target, or shoot down a target at some time, they could have done that," he said.

And, at the time, military and civilian officials were scrambling to land all the other commercial planes in the air during the crisis - plus sort out more than a dozen false reports of additional hijackings.

"By the time [Toledo's jets] got in the air, all those four [hijacked planes] were down," Colonel Marr said. "The problem was, we didn't know those were only the four."
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My thoughts are clear. Those who think UA93 was shot down are a dimwits.
 
Axxman300 said:
....Colonel Marr said. "The problem was, we didn't know those were only the four."
Click to expand...


My thoughts are clear. Those who think UA93 was shot down are a dimwits.
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Agreed. The three "big picture" factors are:
1) There was no shoot down - therefore - similar to WTC where there was no CD - discussion of details is moot in the absence of a valid hypothesis supporting the primary claim;
THEN
2) There was no viable window of opportunity for EITHER the physical act of shoot down for any of the four planes OR a point at which a legitimate "cost benefit" based decision to shoot down could have been made;
AND
3) The almost universally overlooked elephant in the room - as per your quote above: ".... we didn't know those were only the four."
 
Of course I read the article. What I find most interesting is none of the pilots at Toledo Air Guard were allowed to talk to the reporter. Do we even know who they were? There have been interviews of other pilots from other air bases but apparently none from the Toledo Air Guard.

Why?
 
MaGZ said:
Of course I read the article. What I find most interesting is none of the pilots at Toledo Air Guard were allowed to talk to the reporter.
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Why do you think they were not allowed to talk. Why would they want to talk to the likes of you?
 
MaGZ said:
Of course I read the article. What I find most interesting is none of the pilots at Toledo Air Guard were allowed to talk to the reporter. Do we even know who they were? There have been interviews of other pilots from other air bases but apparently none from the Toledo Air Guard.

Why?
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Do you know they have the internet on computers now?

https://www.wtol.com/article/news/t...-911/512-d7f3e824-be48-4b68-9a07-a56e4da91253

The North American Aerospace Defense Command wanted two jets up. Newell and Reed were the pilots. 180th maintenance guys had gotten a call, too, and had loaded up their F-16's guns with 500 rounds of 20-caliber ammunition. The pilots call the M-61 cannon "The Vulcan," which fires about 100 rounds a second.

And if the Toledo-based jets encounterd a commandeered commercial jetliner, would they have shot it down? "We detach ourselves as much as we can and look at it as a technical problem to be solved," said Reed.

That was a scenario the Toledo-based pilots were ready to face, but didn't have to on 9/11. During the mission, "I felt pretty good about what we were doing simply because it was the first time in my whole life that I was going to get to do what I thought was protect the homeland," said Newell.
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Took ten second to find this...from 2006...
 
beachnut said:
You posted proof why NORAD did not patrol or take action over the USA domestic air space, and you don't know it because you failed to read the article. You posted evidence for what happen on 9/11, and why the USAF did not have authorization, but relied on being asked by the FAA to help...

Why not read it first, and stop asking questions.

Were the fighters armed?

Plus you posted evidence for the 19 terrorists did 9/11 with four planes. You posted evidence against 9/11 truth.
Click to expand...

Would a fully fueled and armed fighter jet be normally parked out on the tarmac? At a State Air Guard base? A pair of them? With fighter jockeys sitting in the ready room? And nobody would go "this seems odd?"

Putting this puzzle piece on the board just raises more questions, rather than answering any.
 
Some snapshots from the NEADS recordings, MCC channel.

09:45 EDT
We're talking to Toledo right now, and they may be able to get somebody airborne.
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09:49 EDT
Jamie. Jamie. Find out what's going on with my Toledo guys, with Toledo.
Already told them to scramble
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09:56 EDT
Selfridge and Toledo both.
They have been scrambled.
Foxy, I'm sorry.
How many aircraft now?
Two each.
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So Marr is wrong, apparently. But MaGZ also. Toledo is some 300 miles away from Shanksville. No way to get there in time for the Toledo fighters. And, of course, UA 93 is not discussed anywhere in the NEADS Tapes before its crash, nor is there any plane near UA 93 in the radar data during crash time.

Anyway, just some drive-by debunking ... Didn´t step in here for years now. Strange feeling.
 
progge said:
Some snapshots from the NEADS recordings, MCC channel.

09:56 EDT


So Marr is wrong, apparently. But MaGZ also. Toledo is some 300 miles away from Shanksville. No way to get there in time for the Toledo fighters. And, of course, UA 93 is not discussed anywhere in the NEADS Tapes before its crash, nor is there any plane near UA 93 in the radar data during crash time.

Anyway, just some drive-by debunking ... Didn´t step in here for years now. Strange feeling.
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The top speed for the F16 is roughly 1500 MPH. That's 25 miles a minute. 300 miles is 12 minutes. If we figure that they took off at 9:56 they would have arrived at 10:08. Since the flight crashed at 10:03, I doubt they could have gotten cannons on at 125 miles.

Even at 9:49, and allowing 5 minutes to load the ammo, you are still looking at an arrival time of 10:06. I've no actual knowledge of how long it takes to get ammo out and loaded, but 5 minutes would be blazing fast. Even if just bullets. You'd want at least a thousand rounds and those things are heavy. I remember having to pack 50 cal rounds, when I had to, and damn those were heavy. Sure, I did dump them on the A-gunner, and anyone who wanted to shoot, had to pack their own can, but it's not like something you can grab and sprint across the tarmac with.

Basic math makes the theory impossible. But that doesn't stop the theory, does it?
 
Leftus said:
The top speed for the F16 is roughly 1500 MPH. That's 25 miles a minute. 300 miles is 12 minutes. If we figure that they took off at 9:56 they would have arrived at 10:08. Since the flight crashed at 10:03, I doubt they could have gotten cannons on at 125 miles.

Even at 9:49, and allowing 5 minutes to load the ammo, you are still looking at an arrival time of 10:06. I've no actual knowledge of how long it takes to get ammo out and loaded, but 5 minutes would be blazing fast. Even if just bullets. You'd want at least a thousand rounds and those things are heavy. I remember having to pack 50 cal rounds, when I had to, and damn those were heavy. Sure, I did dump them on the A-gunner, and anyone who wanted to shoot, had to pack their own can, but it's not like something you can grab and sprint across the tarmac with.

Basic math makes the theory impossible. But that doesn't stop the theory, does it?
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With the ammunition loading system approximately 13.5 minutes. The F-16's drum holds a maximum of 511 rounds.
 
catsmate said:
With the ammunition loading system approximately 13.5 minutes. The F-16's drum holds a maximum of 511 rounds.
Click to expand...


Yesterday I asked a friend of mine who is a former crew chief in the Indiana Air National Guard about this; at the time he was in, he worked on F-16s. He said that, assuming all of the necessary permissions were given, and all of the proper procedures and safety regulations were followed, it would take about two hours to ready and arm an F-16 with just cannon ammo. One thing he mentioned that struck me is that the ammo cart is not supposed to be driven at more than 5 mph.
 
catsmate said:
With the ammunition loading system approximately 13.5 minutes. The F-16's drum holds a maximum of 511 rounds.
Click to expand...

Each round weighs .56 of a pound. That's 286 pounds of ammo somebody has to sling around. From the munitions dump to the tarmac. A vehicle will be involved. So with a 13.5 minute load time, and a 12 ish minute flight time, We are looking at 25 minutes lead time before shootdown. So the F16s would have had to take off at around … 9:38. Or before. Of course, they hadn't even been tasked until 9:45. And this is with an F16 otherwise all ready to go, sitting on the tarmac, fully fueled.

I'm always amused when people, who have never served in any military, somehow know how it works. Just scramble a plane. You know, unless you are in an active theatre, they aren't kept battle ready. And a Air Guard unit in Ohio wouldn't be on active alert status, with planes fueled, armed, and on the tarmac ready to go. I would doubt that even a major base would have jets in that status. There was no, nor is not now, a need. The fact they could have gotten a jet up and mostly battle ready (no missiles) in half an hour to me is impressive. And dare I take some pride in the actions of others, well done.
 
Interesting though the technical logistics issues are the over-riding bottom line is simple. There was no "space" in the timeline in which a legitimate decision to shoot down could have been taken and implemented.

The only plausible option was as a response to any additional hijacks which may have occurred later in time and at a reachable location. Moot point obviously.
 
There were no planes "set up and trained:" to shoot down a commercial plane. There was not policy in place to allow this. There was no time to break protocol and give it a go.

This is a non starter.
 
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