Non-binary identities are valid

[Belz...]

Bisexuality is the norm in social animals.

Which has what to do with gender identity?

 

[Belz...]

I see non-binary as a separate category from transgender. I expect there's a lot of people (relatively) who don't suffer from gender dysphoria or have any strong desire to present themselves as something other than their birth gender, who also don't have any strong affinity for either binary option in their self-identity.

"I'm not transitioning from anything to anything; I just don't think of myself in those terms."

Well, I guess it depends on whether we define "trans" as someone with dysphoria to begin with, or one who transitions, or simply one who identifies, etc.

 

[theprestige]

Fertilizer's expensive and my HOA is sticklers for a green lawn, don't judge.

Raises questions about what kind of diet produces the best fertilizer, and whether it would be cheaper to have a health-optimal diet and just buy the fertilizer.

 

[theprestige]

Well, I guess it depends on whether we define "trans" as someone with dysphoria to begin with, or one who transitions, or simply one who identifies, etc.

Sounds reasonable. How are you defining it here?

 

[caveman1917]

I've been wondering if it can be unpacked in a sensible way, such that people who've never questioned their gender will understand how and why non-binary identities are valid. Is this unique phenomenon amenable to scientific study? Are there any objectively falsifiable or verifiable propositions being put forward here?

Define "valid".

 

[d4m10n]

The real issue is: why do so many people feel the need to question the validity of how other people feel about themselves...

You should perhaps make a thread about the real issue, so this frivolous thread doesn't distract therefrom. [emoji14]

 

[TragicMonkey]

Fertilizer's expensive and my HOA is sticklers for a green lawn, don't judge.

Oh. I thought you meant that animals come indoors to poop during the summer months. I pictured moose knocking at the front door, "hey man, I really gotta go, let me in!" That'd be cute if it were a cartoon moose, very much the opposite if it were a real moose.

 

[d4m10n]

Define "valid".

I'm not in a particularly propitious position to do that, since part of what I'm asking is what people really mean when they encourage others to adopt this idea.

Yeah. I read "are valid" as "ought to be accepted", and I have no problem doing that, for the simple reason that it's no skin off my nose.

Seems like a perfectly healthy attitude to me, but then again I'm not running an event/group/facility intended to be a space for either men or women so basically all I'd need to do is think a bit harder about pronouns.

 

[uke2se]

I'm not in a particularly propitious position to do that, since part of what I'm asking is what people really mean when they encourage others to adopt this idea.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

I guess they are asking you to accept that there will be non-binary people around and that their presence and needs will sometimes challenge your perception of what ought to take place in gendered areas. They are also asking you not to be a dick (or your equivalent) about that and to work to find a solution to your bothers that is empathetic to the needs of others.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Which has what to do with gender identity?

It indicates that gender identification based on sexual behavior is probably not very useful.

 

[caveman1917]

I'm not in a particularly propitious position to do that, since part of what I'm asking is what people really mean when they encourage others to adopt this idea.

In that case the answer to these questions is no. If you can not define the terms used in the proposition "non-binary identities are valid" then it is neither amenable to scientific study nor objectively falsifiable or verifiable.

I've been wondering if it can be unpacked in a sensible way, such that people who've never questioned their gender will understand how and why non-binary identities are valid. Is this unique phenomenon amenable to scientific study? Are there any objectively falsifiable or verifiable propositions being put forward here?

In a way you might as well be asking "Is sqqj kudqs ;qssqd amenable to scientific study or objective falsification?"

 

[d4m10n]

In a way you might as well be asking "Is sqqj kudqs ;qssqd amenable to scientific study or objective falsification?"

In this case, "sqqj kudqs ;qssqd" would be "non-binary self-identity."

The question about scientific study was intended to be a separate one from the question about validity, whatever that should be taken to mean.

ETA: The tweet that got me thinking about this said both "valid and real" and I assumed the latter part would have to relate to scientific inquiry.

ETA2: I think we can probably go with one of the usual definitions of "valid," though we might do even better looking to "validation" in the social sense of the term.

 

[d4m10n]

I guess they are asking you to accept that there will be non-binary people around and that their presence and needs will sometimes challenge your perception of what ought to take place in gendered areas.

I could just barely care less whether a non-binary person (of either sex) uses the gentlemen's loo, showers, or lockers at my local gym. That said, I don't feel qualified to have a say as to what should happen in the ladies.

Did you have other "gendered spaces" in mind?

 

[Ziggurat]

There are also deniers of bisexuality. The real issue is: why do so many people feel the need to question the validity of how other people feel about themselves...

I don't care how anyone feels about themselves. But when you start trying to impose nonstandard pronoun usage on other people, you're well past how you feel about yourself, you're now insisting how other people act.

 

[Chanakya]

There's not going to be a magic explanation that everyone will automatically understand and accept. Someone who's comfortable with binary identity and has never question theirs may well find the whole concept incomprehensible and even silly. Possibly threatening or insulting. I don't think there's any way to bridge that mindset gap with rhetoric or science.

About the best explanation I can think of is:

biological gender is binary, but identity and expression are a state of mind, and there are as many states of mind as there are human beings.

No two people are going to agree on every detail of gender expression. Even among hardcore gender binarists you're going to have some people who think that being a tomboy is consistent with female polarity, and some people who think that being a tomboy violates the binary principle.

And that's just personal perceptions. We haven't even started on broader social constructs. And we haven't even started on variances between social constructs in different communities and subcultures.

So either you drive yourself insane trying to define exactly what is and isn't at the extreme each binary pole, and discovering that literally nobody else - not your pastor, not your parents, not your life partner - agrees with all your definitions... Or you accept that it's not binary and move on with your life.​

But there's no guarantee that anyone who's never questioned their gender will understand it or recognize that non-binary identities are valid.

I wonder if you can't really consider the explanation without questioning your own identity, at least hypothetically. Once you start down the rabbit hole of "no question I'm a dude, but what about the fact that nobody else agrees with me about what exactly a dude is?" there's no turning back. Some people just aren't interested in going down that personal identity rabbit hole, for a variety of reasons. Any explanation is going to fall on at least some deaf ears.

Searching for an explanation that will be universally or even widely accepted may be a fool's errand. Best we can hope for - what we should strive for - is simply an explanation that explains.

A "magic" explanation may or may not be possible, but what was asked for was a sensible explanation, and this fits the bill. Eminently nommable. And it was Trebuchet's nomination that drew my attention to this post.

As someone who, like the post says, has never questioned my sexual identity, and who finds the very idea bizarre (even as I'm entirely -- if only intellectually -- accommodative of others who do so question theirs), this post got me understanding, realizing, how sexual identity may well be something we're now in the process of overgrowing, so that in a generation or two the whole Mr Mrs Ms thing, that entire thinking, may well become an anachronism.

But of course, that's something we're -- hopefully -- evoloving towards, as a society. We're not there yet, not quite. And, in some places, not at all, thus far.

Anyway, this doesn't really get us to solve the separate-bathroom-for-transfolks issue, because clearly separate stalls for tomboys is laughable, as is a whole series of stalls for a whole vibgyor of identities. I guess a Men, and Women, and a third Everything In Between (however labeled) may do the trick for now?

 

[d4m10n]

But when you start trying to impose nonstandard pronoun usage on other people, you're well past how you feel about yourself, you're now insisting how other people act.

If someone had asked me "Hey what if we replaced all gendered/sexed pronouns with a single unitary pronoun which recognizes all people as worthy of equal dignity?" I'd've been like "Yeah, sounds cool." AFAICT, tho, that isn't really the ask on the table here. Instead, we're in for waves of further complexification along with a few miles on the euphemism treadmill^WP.

 

[Robin]

There are also deniers of bisexuality. The real issue is: why do so many people feel the need to question the validity of how other people feel about themselves...

But I can be very clear about what I mean when I say I am bisexual, I don't just say "I feel like a bisexual".

When I say I am bisexual I mean that I feel sexually attracted to both males and females.

If I were to question whether I am binary or non- binary in my gender identity, how would.I know where to start?

How does it feel to feel.that I am a man? How does it feel to feel like I am a woman?

If I don't know the border condition then I can't even know what the spectrum is.

So may be I am neither binary nor non-binary. How would I tell?

 

[Robin]

Searching for an explanation that will be universally or even widely accepted may be a fool's errand. Best we can hope for - what we should strive for - is simply an explanation that explains.

But I haven't even seen an explanation that explains.

When I say "I am a man" I mean only that I am biologically male.

I don't know of any other definition. If I were to wonder if I was really a man I would only be wondering if I was really biologically male.

I am and have always been open to other definitions of "man" but I have never ever seen one beyond "someone who feels that they are a man"

But how does that feel? No one has ever been able to tell me.

 

[Robin]

If someone had asked me "Hey what if we replaced all gendered/sexed pronouns with a single unitary pronoun which recognizes all people as worthy of equal dignity?" I'd've been like "Yeah, sounds cool." AFAICT, tho, that isn't really the ask on the table here. Instead, we're in for waves of further complexification along with a few miles on the euphemism treadmill^WP.

But I have never considered any pronoun to imply any greater or lesser dignity.

 

[arthwollipot]

But I haven't even seen an explanation that explains.

When I say "I am a man" I mean only that I am biologically male.

I don't know of any other definition. If I were to wonder if I was really a man I would only be wondering if I was really biologically male.

I am and have always been open to other definitions of "man" but I have never ever seen one beyond "someone who feels that they are a man"

But how does that feel? No one has ever been able to tell me.

I seem to recall circling this roundabout with you previously, Robin.

It's no more an expressible feeling now than it was then. You can't tell me what it feels like to smell roses, and I can't tell you what it feels like to be male. All that can be said, is if you're sure you're sure, and if you're not, then nonbinary could be the gender identity that sits best with you. Try it on for size and if you don't like it, go back to identifying in agreement with your genitals.