• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Historical Jesus

Status
Not open for further replies.
No. IanS is of the opinion that you need to provide evidence for a real Jesus rather than the mythical Jesus (we all agree there is overwhelming evidence for that Jesus) and that there is pretty much zilch evidence from any time around when your real Jesus is meant to have lived (according to the evidence for the mythical Jesus).

Not quite “zilch evidence”. There is the evidence that the Jesus story began around the time when the real Jesus is meant to have lived. So, why then? Who or what was the catalyst? It is reasonable to assert that it was precipitated by an actual individual with the magic bits added later as the story grew and was embellished.
 
Last edited:
Not quite “zilch evidence”. There is the evidence that the Jesus story began around the time when the real Jesus is meant to have lived. So, why then? Who or what was the catalyst?

You do realise that this is putting the cart before the horse and is quite circular? You are saying that you believe the mythical Jesus origin story contains the date of the existence of the real Jesus? Why should that part be correct if all the rest isn't? Plus of course that date is in fact a speculation in itself - it is not contained in or rather is not consistent in the mythical Jesus's stories.

Roger mentioned above about ignoring the "mundane" in the stories of the mythical Jesus, problem is that when you remove the supernatural from the mythical Jesus the mundane bits we are left with are either unevidenced or now known to be historically inaccurate or just completely wrong and made up.




It is reasonable to assert that it was precipitated by an actual individual with the magic bits added later as the story grew and was embellished.

And it is reasonable to assert that the religion we now call Christianity arose like many other religions (that we have pretty much accurate records and accounts to look at).

This always gets back to one thing - lack of evidence for a real Jesus, a shedload of evidence for a mythical Jesus.
 
That passage Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.

The Jesus in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 was alive in the time of Albinus c 64 CE and was the son of Damneus.

Jesus the son of Damneus was called Christ because he was a High Priest.

High Priest were called Christ by Jews.

The word Christ simply means "anointed".

High Priest were anointed with oil when installed.

Jesus of Nazareth would not ever be called the Christ [the anointed] by Jews since he was never a High Priest or King of the Jews.

Jesus of Nazareth had no human father.
Jesus of Nazareth was born of a Ghost and never ever had any history.

You know that Jesus was called Christ by Christians right? And no, he was not referring to Jesus of Damneus, overwise he would have called him that. He is clearly saying "Jesus called Christ" brother of James to distinguish him from Jesus Damneus.

Since you quoted Wikipedia. The passage is not authentic so has no credibility. Assumptions about its original content is worthless.

Nice anti-intellectualism.
 
You do realise that this is putting the cart before the horse and is quite circular? You are saying that you believe the mythical Jesus origin story contains the date of the existence of the real Jesus? Why should that part be correct if all the rest isn't? Plus of course that date is in fact a speculation in itself - it is not contained in or rather is not consistent in the mythical Jesus's stories.

How about the fact that he was crucified by Pontius Pilate who we know served as governor of Judea from 26-36 AD?
 
Last edited:
No. IanS is of the opinion that you need to provide evidence for a real Jesus rather than the mythical Jesus (we all agree there is overwhelming evidence for that Jesus) and that there is pretty much zilch evidence from any time around when your real Jesus is meant to have lived (according to the evidence for the mythical Jesus).

*cough* Paul *cough*

And supernatural things being attributed to a person does not make that person non-historical.
 
Last edited:
Mistake. I meant that the Gospels state that Jesus was killed by Pilate and we know when he ruled. You disputed that the gospels contain a date when Jesus lived.


No I didn't. What I said was "You are saying that you believe the mythical Jesus origin story contains the date of the existence of the real Jesus?".
 
Second time you've brought this idea up - again I've no idea why, it has nothing to do with anything people asking for evidence have said or implied.

You said "(we all agree there is overwhelming evidence for that [mythical] Jesus)" Which is of course begging the question. I pointed out that supernatural elements does not make someone mythological or non-historical.
 
No I didn't. What I said was "You are saying that you believe the mythical Jesus origin story contains the date of the existence of the real Jesus?".

Why do do you have bring up the birth narratives? Also they do try to date Jesus' birth to the Reign of Augustus and King Herod.
 
You said "(we all agree there is overwhelming evidence for that [mythical] Jesus)" Which is of course begging the question. I pointed out that supernatural elements does not make someone mythological or non-historical.

Didn't think it was begging the question. Perhaps my wording isn't helping?

I see it as there are two current claims for a character called Jesus.

The first and the one I think we all agree did not and does not exist is the Jesus that the various religions we label as "Christian" say existed and claim exists today. This is the "mythic" Jesus. Perhaps better if I used the term "religious Jesus" to label that character?

The second one is that there was an actual flesh and blood, no superpowers whatsoever person called Jesus that came up with a new religion and gained some followers and that is what started the religions that became to be known as "Christianity", this is the character that is usually referred to as "historical Jesus" and the further claim is that this character was hyped up by his believers over the centuries to become the religious Jesus.

So we have two quite different claims, we have the claims about the religious Jesus that we all know did not exist and another different claim that there was a historical Jesus.
 
You said "(we all agree there is overwhelming evidence for that [mythical] Jesus)" Which is of course begging the question. I pointed out that supernatural elements does not make someone mythological or non-historical.

That's not begging the question - please see my post above.
 
You so show us as sect a Christianity that claimed that.


I don't know why you bother posting silly things like that. Do you really think that people cannot easily see that you are just preaching about Jesus and the bible and not making any genuine objective defence of HJ belief at all.

Look, I will tell you what I believe ... and it's not up to you to put all manner of false words in my mouth.

I do not (as you just claimed) "believe that Jesus was originally just a heavenly figure who did not live on earth" ... for a start I don't believe there are ANY "heavenly figures"! I do not believe there is any "figure" of Jesus "in heaven"!

And I have no idea whether or not the biblical Jesus was ever a real person living in 1st century Judea.

What I say about it is only this -

1 there is really no evidence of a real human Jesus

2 all sources very probably originate only from the biblical writing/preaching

3 what is said in that biblical writing/preaching is not remotely credible

4 the fact that bible scholars (they are not "historians") insist that the gospels and letters contain such good evidence as to make Jesus a "certainty" is not only blatantly untrue but also makes them (bible scholars) extremely suspicious in their motives and their objectivity really not fit to be hired as university academics.
 
Didn't think it was begging the question. Perhaps my wording isn't helping?

I see it as there are two current claims for a character called Jesus.

The first and the one I think we all agree did not and does not exist is the Jesus that the various religions we label as "Christian" say existed and claim exists today. This is the "mythic" Jesus. Perhaps better if I used the term "religious Jesus" to label that character?

The second one is that there was an actual flesh and blood, no superpowers whatsoever person called Jesus that came up with a new religion and gained some followers and that is what started the religions that became to be known as "Christianity", this is the character that is usually referred to as "historical Jesus" and the further claim is that this character was hyped up by his believers over the centuries to become the religious Jesus.

So we have two quite different claims, we have the claims about the religious Jesus that we all know did not exist and another different claim that there was a historical Jesus.

I have a slight nitpick with your second point. The "actual flesh and blood, no superpowers whatsoever person called Jesus" didn't start a new religion, Paul did that. AFAICT Jesus (the HJ that all the experts talk about) was all about a stricter, more fundamentalist observance of all of the Jewish laws. The "New Covenant" was a re-affirmation of obedience to every single one of those arcane Old Testament laws.

The version of Jesus that got hyped up over the years was Paul's gentile-friendly Jesus who spoke to him from the sky. Mainly because the "Jewish Christians" - The Ebionites - were largely destroyed during the various uprisings against Rome when the whole of Jerusalem was raised to the ground.

You seem to think that Historians are unable to glean any useful information from a close critical analysis of NT texts. I think Historians will say otherwise.
 
Not quite “zilch evidence”. There is the evidence that the Jesus story began around the time when the real Jesus is meant to have lived. So, why then? Who or what was the catalyst? It is reasonable to assert that it was precipitated by an actual individual with the magic bits added later as the story grew and was embellished.

Crikey, the reading comprehension and level of objective reasoning has really sunk to an all time low with this thread ...

... how do you know that quote "the Jesus story began around the time when the real Jesus is meant to have lived" ? ... the biblical writing is your source for all that was ever said about Jesus, and it's that same biblical source that is telling you when he lived!! ... all your information is coming always from the bible!
 
...
4 the fact that bible scholars (they are not "historians") insist that the gospels and letters contain such good evidence as to make Jesus a "certainty" is not only blatantly untrue but also makes them (bible scholars) extremely suspicious in their motives and their objectivity really not fit to be hired as university academics.

So as soon as an actual Historian applies the same techniques they would use for any other ancient material to this subject they become "Bible Scholars", their motives are suspect and their objectivity goes out the window... got it. Even the Jewish ones? Oy...
 
There is the evidence that the Jesus story began around the time when the real Jesus is meant to have lived. So, why then? Who or what was the catalyst?
It's slightly more complicated, more interesting, worse for one version of a historical-Jesus case, and better for another version of a historical-Jesus case, than that.

The only details that ever made anybody think Jesus was born around 1 and preaching around 30-33 are the Census in one of his infancy narratives and the name "Pilat". And we already know the bit about the Census is wrong because that didn't work the way the Bible says it did, wasn't ordered by who the Bible says ordered it, and serves an obvious purpose of enabling the author to say he was from two different places in order to claim he satisfied two different origin requirements. And based on other sources' descriptions of Pilat, he wouldn't have acted the way the guy in the Bible does.

So, if we take the Census and the name "Pilat" off the table, when would we think the story was supposed to have happened, based on the remaining clues?

Historical-Jesus debates tend to lump the whole mid-00s together as one era, an era in which many Jews were thinking about all-out rebellion against Rome, a few leaders were trying to get one started while mixing the concept of that rebellion with Jewish theology, and Rome was squashing those movements and crucifying their leaders. The word for some other guys getting executed along with Jesus is often translated into English as "robbers" but elsewhere refers to rebels, not just thieves. Jesus himself is said to be thrown in with "the other {robbers/rebels}", and we all know that the "rebel" profile fits him while "thief" does not. But there are no secular sources saying that's what the setting was like in the early 30s. They say it was like that in the 50s and 60s. Before that, there's a period in which there no signs of Jewish rebelliousness or of the Romans going around crucifying people, because the people they would end up crucifying, the rebels, weren't "a thing" yet.

But it's more specific than just the general mood of the place & time. There are a handful of events that are mentioned in both the Bible and secular sources that are weirdly coincidental if they're supposed to have happened decades apart but make perfect sense as just one event being reported in both places. For example, Paul mentions a bout of social unrest which was kicked off by a guy named Stephanus getting attacked by a mob (I think that might even be what he says somehow inspired him to go around "oppressing" certain people). Josephus also mentions similar unrest in response to a Stephanus getting attacked by a mob. But Josephus puts it in the 50s or 60s (I'm not sure when exactly), and conventional Christian dating would need it to be in the 30s. And there are a few others like that. And during that same period, there was also another Herod as "king", and a different guy in Pilat's job whose style better fits the style of the guy in the Bible. And that era is not just the time when wandering preachers in general were around, but includes a specific one Josephus never names, called "the Egyptian", whose story sounds like a secular description of Jesus without the name

In short, pretty much everything else about the story says it needs to be set two or three decades later than most people currently think. That's when everything else lines up between the Bible and secular sources, except for the Census that we know the Bible gets wrong and the name "Pilat". If the Census hadn't been thrown in and the Roman guy's name hadn't been changed to Pilat, nobody would ever have doubted that the story happened in the 50s/60s and Jesus was "the Egyptian".
 
Crikey, the reading comprehension and level of objective reasoning has really sunk to an all time low with this thread ...

... how do you know that quote "the Jesus story began around the time when the real Jesus is meant to have lived" ? ... the biblical writing is your source for all that was ever said about Jesus, and it's that same biblical source that is telling you when he lived!! ... all your information is coming always from the bible!

Ever heard of a guy named Paul? Writing in the 50s, a few decades after Pilate?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom