Irony in the "War On Christmas."

Religious conservatives are miffed because they have been pressuring stores to advertise Christmas sales rather than holiday specials and urging schools to let students out for Christmas vacation rather than for winter break.
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Stores I can understand. But what about non-Christian students? If they don't celebrate Christmas, do they have to give up their Christmas break?

This is all so silly.
 
I wanna know when these folk are going to get all hot 'n bothered by the dozens of Christmas songs that have been around for decades...and which aren't Christmas songs:

"Happy Holidays" (Andy Williams)
"Winter Wonderland"
"Sleigh Ride"
"Frosty the Snowman"
"Jingle Bell Rock"
etc., etc.

Fundies. Ain't they somethin'?
 
The irony of it all is these fundies want to bash Bush over his White House Christmas card yet Christmas is a fake holiday. The Bible does not mention the date of Jesus's birth.

Mathew 2:1

1) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
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So not only is Christmas fake, we don't know the date of Jesus's birth and the often-told legend of the "three wise men" is fake. The bible says "there came wise men from the east" not "there came three wise men from the east".

Even the way Santa Clause looks today was c-r-e-a-t-e-d by artist Haddon Sundblom for Coca-Cola ads in the 30s!

santa41b.jpg
 
zenith-nadir said:
The irony of it all is these fundies want to bash Bush over his White House Christmas card yet Christmas is a fake holiday. The Bible does not mention the date of Jesus's birth.
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Not explicitly, but I think it does implicitly through surrounding events. Weren't they on their way back to their home town because of a Rome-mandated census/tax thing? That would give an approximate time of year, though not a day. IIRC, I think it was some time in the spring, so the date's still wrong, but I do think we have an idea.
 
The real irony is that Christians co-opted pagan traditions and "xtianized" them in the first place. Christ's birthdate is not known...but Mithra (an ancient Persian God) was born on December 25th...thus they xtianized the cult of Mithra. The ancient pagan tradition in Germany was the decorated tree...xtianized...absorbed into the collective. The "yuletide"? Ancient Britanic pagan celebration at the winter solstice...absorbed! It's like xtianity is the religious analog to the Borg!

...and now they bitch because it's being verbally taken back? These people don't even know their own religious history!

-z
 
Ziggurat said:
Not explicitly, but I think it does implicitly through surrounding events. Weren't they on their way back to their home town because of a Rome-mandated census/tax thing? That would give an approximate time of year, though not a day. IIRC, I think it was some time in the spring, so the date's still wrong, but I do think we have an idea.
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If memory serves the information is inconsistent. The events happened at different times, or while a different emperor reigned than the one the Bible says did. Something like that.
 
rikzilla said:
The real irony is that Christians co-opted pagan traditions and "xtianized" them in the first place. Christ's birthdate is not known...but Mithra (an ancient Persian God) was born on December 25th...thus they xtianized the cult of Mithra. The ancient pagan tradition in Germany was the decorated tree...xtianized...absorbed into the collective. The "yuletide"? Ancient Britanic pagan celebration at the winter solstice...absorbed! It's like xtianity is the religious analog to the Borg!

...and now they bitch because it's being verbally taken back? These people don't even know their own religious history!

-z
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Even better is the fact that in many of the original colonies, the celebration of Christmas was regarded as a "Popish import" and was highly illegal.
 
Regnad Kcin said:
I wanna know when these folk are going to get all hot 'n bothered by the dozens of Christmas songs that have been around for decades...and which aren't Christmas songs:

"Happy Holidays" (Andy Williams)
"Winter Wonderland"
"Sleigh Ride"
"Frosty the Snowman"
"Jingle Bell Rock"
etc., etc.
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Let me add my favorite:

Deck the Halls

What in the heck do boughs of holly have to do with the birth of Jesus? Nothing, of course, because the song is all about the Yule, i.e. the passing of the year.

In fact, this is a little more clear if you look at the other verses

Deck the halls with boughs of holly
'Tis the season to be jolly
Don we now our gay apparel
Troll the ancient Yule-tide carol

See the blazing Yule before us.
Strike the harp and join the chorus.
Follow me in merry measure.
While I tell of Yule-tide treasure.

Fast away the old year passes.
Hail the new year, lads and lasses
Sing we joyous, all together.
heedless of the wind and weather.

Wikipedia, however, claims that any song about Christmas or "the winter season in general" is a "Christmas Carol."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_carol

However, it does call "Deck the Halls" a "secular Christmas Carol."

So sing Deck the Halls, contribute to the secularization of Christmas!
 
No, no, no, no,..................the REAL irony is that, after years and years of christians bemoaning the fact there was too much commericalism in christmas, they're trying to put christmas into commercialism!
 
rikzilla said:
The real irony is that Christians co-opted pagan traditions and "xtianized" them in the first place. Christ's birthdate is not known...but Mithra (an ancient Persian God) was born on December 25th...thus they xtianized the cult of Mithra. The ancient pagan tradition in Germany was the decorated tree...xtianized...absorbed into the collective. The "yuletide"? Ancient Britanic pagan celebration at the winter solstice...absorbed! It's like xtianity is the religious analog to the Borg!

...and now they bitch because it's being verbally taken back? These people don't even know their own religious history!

-z
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I love learning about stuff like this. Can you provide a source so I can read more?
 
Tony said:
I love learning about stuff like this. Can you provide a source so I can read more?
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The birth of Mithra is celebrated at the eve of the winter solstice, called Shab-e Yalda in Persian, as befits a god of light.
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Look up Mithra on Wikipedia. My own info on him was gleaned from many JREF debates years ago when I regularly haunted the Religion forum.

Here's another interesting xtian/Mithraic parallel:
The largest temple with a Mithraic connection is the Seleucid temple at Kangavar in western Iran (c. 200 BC), which is dedicated to "Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras".
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Then there's this:
Most of the research into Mithraism, a religion with many parallels to Christianity, comes from two writers, Cumont and Ulansey with a variety of other writers input. Some Similarities Between Mithraism and Christianity are:
Virgin birth
Twelve followers
Killing and resurrection
Miracles
Birthdate on December 25
Morality
Mankind's savior
Known as the Light of the world
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From here.

-z
 
rikzilla said:
Look up Mithra on Wikipedia. My own info on him was gleaned from many JREF debates years ago when I regularly haunted the Religion forum.

Here's another interesting xtian/Mithraic parallel:
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Really interesting stuff, Rik. I'm impressed, I'll have to admit I think of you as a permanent fixture in the political forum, but this is too cool. Thanks for the links and the info.

Now I've got some ammo when an X-tian tells me, "we've lost the true meaning behind Christmas."
 
Libertarian said:
No, no, no, no,..................the REAL irony is that, after years and years of christians bemoaning the fact there was too much commericalism in christmas, they're trying to put christmas into commercialism!
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Exactly.
 
zenith-nadir said:
Even the way Santa Clause looks today was c-r-e-a-t-e-d by artist Haddon Sundblom for Coca-Cola ads in the 30s!
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I was wrong.

I did more digging and snopes had something.

"The Louis Prang 1886 Christmas card modern Santa Claus derived from these two images: St. Nicholas the elf-like gift bringer described by Moore, and a friendlier "Kriss Kringle" amalgam of the Christkindlein and Pelznickel figures. The man-sized version of Santa became the dominant image around 1841, when a Philadelphia merchant named J.W. Parkinson hired a man to dress in "Criscringle" clothing and climb the chimney outside his shop."
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...and sadly, cuz I like the song so much, even good old Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer was a marketing scheme...

"Rudolph came to life in 1939 when the Chicago-based Montgomery Ward company (operators of a chain of department stores) asked one of their copywriters, 34-year-old Robert L. May, to come up with a Christmas story they could give away to shoppers as a promotional gimmick."
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:xmas :xmasfsm :nonmerry
 
zenith-nadir said:
The irony of it all is these fundies want to bash Bush over his White House Christmas card yet Christmas is a fake holiday. The Bible does not mention the date of Jesus's birth.



So not only is Christmas fake, we don't know the date of Jesus's birth and the often-told legend of the "three wise men" is fake. The bible says "there came wise men from the east" not "there came three wise men from the east".

Even the way Santa Clause looks today was c-r-e-a-t-e-d by artist Haddon Sundblom for Coca-Cola ads in the 30s!

santa41b.jpg
Click to expand...

Don't you love marketing? Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer was also a marketing ploy. Whenever I see those "Remember the Reason for the Season" signs, I always think, "Marketing".
 
rikzilla said:
The real irony is that Christians co-opted pagan traditions and "xtianized" them in the first place. Christ's birthdate is not known...but Mithra (an ancient Persian God) was born on December 25th...thus they xtianized the cult of Mithra. The ancient pagan tradition in Germany was the decorated tree...xtianized...absorbed into the collective. The "yuletide"? Ancient Britanic pagan celebration at the winter solstice...absorbed! It's like xtianity is the religious analog to the Borg!

...and now they bitch because it's being verbally taken back? These people don't even know their own religious history!

-z
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You forgot Roman's celebration of Satunalia that fell around December 25th that was signified by feasting and orgies. Also, Ancient Babylonia had feastings and orgies on what is now December 25th. Solstice celebrations are as old as human civilization.
 
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