Historical Jesus

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Your assertion is quite illogical. You don't even know when and who actually wrote gThomas. The earliest paleography dating of gThomas is sometime in the 4th century.

Cyril of Jerusalem supposedly writing in the 4th century claimed it was a disciple of Manes who wrote gThomas.

Cyril's Catechetical Lecture 4. 36. .


Cyril's Catechetical Lecture 6

In addition, you will not find any historical evidence for an apostle called Thomas.

The Gospel of Thomas appears to show that anonymous persons in and out the NT were simply making stuff up about Jesus.


You are incorrect on the date, early second to third century, from the Oxyrhynchus fragments. So it is likely to have been written before any disciples of Mani could possibly have done it.

Thomas founded some churches in India, you may not like that evidence, you may consider it weak, but it's still evidence.

Cyril's lectures are actually better evidence that there was indeed a historical Jesus, as Cyril was definitely a proponent of the Mythical Jesus and actively suppressing anything heretical to the Orthodox Christianity, such as Gnosticism.
 
Hi Kapyong! Long time, no see!

No, what you wrote is not quite true. Alleged historical stories around Jesus are dated from early in the Second Century, not mid-Second Century, and arguably go back to late First Century.

You're right that the original use of "gospel" meant an evangelical message rather than the written texts we now call "Gospels". That changed in the Second Century, presumably after written texts started to become the main way the evangelist message was spread, rather than through oral transmission (which Papias called "the living voice"). Justin Martyr called the texts "memoirs which are called Gospels", suggesting the term for what was considered memoirs was becoming popular mid-Second Century.

But there are references to historical stories predating that. Papias, writing around 110-140 CE (all dates from the earlychristianwritings website), apparently wrote:

"Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ."

Also:

"And Judas the traitor, not believing, and asking, 'How shall such growths be accomplished by the Lord?'"

Papias didn't seem to call those written texts "Gospels". In fact, he seemed to prefer hearing from people directly rather than getting things from books:

"If, then, any one who had attended on the elders came, I asked minutely after their sayings,--what Andrew or Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the Lord's disciples: which things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I imagined that what was to be got from books was not so profitable to me as what came from the living and abiding voice."

The implication there is that there WERE written texts that he could get information from.

Also Ignatius, writing around 105-115 CE, mentions alleged historical details.

Also Aristides, writing around 120-130 CE:

"This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven. Thereupon these twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world..."

I'll note that you do mention Ignatius and Aristides in your post, though we disagree on the dates. Still, it's reasonable to assume the stories that they refer to had probably been circulating for a little while already.

I just wanted to make clear that your comment that "Gospels, and the alleged historical stories there-in, were unknown to the wider Christian community until mid 2nd century" seems to confuse the ideas of written texts called Gospels being known and alleged historical stories being known. There is evidence that the historical stories were known and there were written texts about those stories, before there were texts that were assigned the name "Gospels".

Aristides had no historical details of his Jesus.

Aristides in his "Apology" stated specifically that Jesus was God who came down from heaven and was born of a woman.

Aristides' Apology"
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High.

And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel

Ignatius did not write any historical details of his Jesus.

Ignatius in an epistle to the Ephesians admitted his Jesus was God born of a Ghost.

Ignatius' Ephesians
For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.

The Gospel Jesus was always a non-historical character from the beginning.
 
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Why are you saying that dejudge is my friend? That is a piece of complete accusatory pathetic nonsense isn't it? Answer, yes it most certainly is. So why do you write things like that?

Now whos defensive? You accused HJ proponents of being defensive and hostile so I pointed to a MJ proponent who does the same

I have no idea who dejudge is outside of whatever he posts on threads like this. I never reply to his posts, and I rarely if ever get into defending anything he has ever said here. I have never endorsed his beliefs or his way of saying that we know things as if the things are certain ... in fact I've always stressed that things in this subject are just about as far away from "certainty" or "proof" as any educated honest sane person could ever imagine ... and in fact that's one of the reasons why anyone who has taken the trouble to really study what has been written in books on both sides of this argument, should be very suspicious indeed of anyone who says or thinks there is genuine reliable evidence for Jesus.

The problem is that one "side" has a very childish and inaccurate view of how history works. Anybody who says "no contemporary records of Jesus" can't be taken seriously.

The "texts" that you are talking about, are indeed evidence. They are evidence of people writing around the first few centuries AD to describe religious belief in a promised supernatural Christ ... but where it was later realised (nearly 2000 years later!) that (a) none of the named authors for gospels ever wrote any of it at all, and that (b) what the anonymous authors did write was a huge long list of untrue invented fiction. That's what the biblical writing is evidence of ...

... what it is definitely NOT evidence of, is any real human Jesus ever known to any of those biblical writers.

What has been found is that a historical Jesus exist regardless of the gospel having of fiction and bias. You can't explain why people then would make up a crucified messiah.
 
You are incorrect on the date, early second to third century, from the Oxyrhynchus fragments. So it is likely to have been written before any disciples of Mani could possibly have done it.

The dating of a manuscript of the gospel of Thomas is sometime in the 4th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
The manuscript of the Coptic text (CG II), found in 1945 at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, is dated at around 340 AD.

Do you know which version of the Gospel of Thomas was known to Cyril?

It would appear there were multiple versions of the Gospel of Thomas written at different times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
The wording of the Coptic sometimes differs markedly from the earlier Greek Oxyrhynchus texts, the extreme case being that the last portion of logion 30 in the Greek is found at the end of logion 77 in the Coptic. This fact, along with the quite different wording Hippolytus uses when apparently quoting it (see below), suggests that the Gospel of Thomas "may have circulated in more than one form and passed through several stages of redaction."[21]

If the Gospel of Thomas was written in the 3rd century it could not have been written by a supposed apostle called Thomas.

The conversation of the God of the Jews with Adam and Eve does not mean the God of the Jews, Adam or Eve existed.

Thomas founded some churches in India, you may not like that evidence, you may consider it weak, but it's still evidence.

Thomas founded some churches in India and Jesus was born of a Ghost.

Cyril's lectures are actually better evidence that there was indeed a historical Jesus, as Cyril was definitely a proponent of the Mythical Jesus and actively suppressing anything heretical to the Orthodox Christianity, such as Gnosticism.

In Cyril's Lectures it is stated his Jesus was born of a Ghost.

Cyril's Catechetical Lecture 4
9. Believe then that this Only-begotten Son of God for our sins came down from heaven upon earth, and took upon Him this human nature of like passions with us, and was begotten of the Holy Virgin and of the Holy Ghost

Jesus was always a non-historical figure from the beginning.
 
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What has been found is that a historical Jesus exist regardless of the gospel having of fiction and bias. You can't explain why people then would make up a crucified messiah.

NT authors did state precisely why their Jesus was crcified and born of a Virgin.

Mark 9:31
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Matthew 1. 22
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus was always a product of mythology - never ever history.
 
NT authors did state precisely why their Jesus was crcified and born of a Virgin.

Mark 9:31


Matthew 1. 22

Jesus was always a product of mythology - never ever history.

Nope, there is nothing on the OT that says the messiah must be killed or crucified and no Jews prior to Christianity believed so. The early Christian were rationalizing it ad hoc. You have no reason for why some Jews would suddenly read that from the scriptures.
 
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I quote myself (I want you to quote me)

Some of the earliest apologetics we have describe the ‘preaching of Peter’ and they say stuff like

“Peter in the Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: But we having opened the books of the prophets which we had, found, sometimes expressed by parables, sometimes by riddles, and sometimes directly (authentically) and in so many words naming Jesus Christ, both his coming and his death and the cross and all the other torments which the Jews inflicted on him, and his resurrection and assumption into the heavens before Jerusalem was founded (MS. judged), even all this things as they had been written, what he must suffer and what shall be after him. When, therefore, we took knowledge of these things, we believed in God through that which had been written of him.”

That sounds a heck of a lot like having any real person to attach this to would have been superfluous.

And restate my position that yeah, we don’t have enough to be sure of either HJ or MJ, but stuff like “you’re a laughable idiot if you say we have no evidence” is ...let’s say unsupported. We really have next to no evidence for HJ, mostly a lot of inference and ‘just so’ type rationalizations. The way one sentence out of a letter like “I saw James the Lord’s brother” must be clutched at like a straw, HJ has so little going for it that THAT is one of the things that gets framed front and center on the ‘evidence’ table.

I don’t begrudge Dejudge his certainty though. People are allowed to form conclusions.
 
Nope, there is nothing on the OT that says the messiah must be killed or crucified and no Jews prior to Christianity believed so. The early Christian were rationalizing it ad hoc. You have no reason for why some Jews would suddenly read that from the scriptures.

Well, someone conveniently made this:
https://parish.rcdow.org.uk/swissco...4/11/44-Prophecies-Jesus-Christ-Fulfilled.pdf

And while a lot of them are certainly a stretch, I feel like that’s a pretty common complaint about what people do with scripture. And it’s not hard to read Isaiah 53:5-12 as pretty executing-the-messiah-ey. If the entire argument against it is “why would they do that if they weren’t trying to justify events that really happened” it just makes me think of that cartoon kid going "You really think someone would do that? Just go on the Internet and tell lies?"
 
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If Paul met Jesus's actual brother, then it comes close to certainty to establishing a HJ. Ehrman sees the natural meaning being an actual brother, and that makes sense. Think of it this way: if we knew there was a HJ, and we knew that Jesus had an actual brother named James, then "James the brother of the Lord" being that actual brother is the natural reading. Few would argue that "brother" here meant fellow-Christian, because that reading isn't needed. But that's not all.

There are a number of sources that claimed that Jesus had a brother called James. Where did they get it? You might argue that they got the idea from Paul. But then it is clear that those sources saw Paul'sJames the brother of the Lord" as meaning an actual brother and not as a "fellow-Christian". That lends weight to the natural reading of the passage in Paul to mean an actual brother.

But you might argue that an interpolator actually added that half sentence to Paul. You in fact suggest that the sentence has a clear structure of interpolation. But then why the interpolation? Does the interpolator add this into Paul to show that Jesus had an actual brother named James? If so, then again that adds weight to the natural meaning that the half-sentence is referring to an actual brother. Might the interpolator have added "James the brother of the Lord" to mean a fellow-Christian rather than an actual brother? It's possible, but you run into the problem that the tradition of Jesus having a brother named James pops up a number of times elsewhere. If you want to argue that the interpolator comes from a different tradition, then I think that case will be the weaker one and the logic starts to become muddled.



Okay, let's assume that "James the brother of the Lord" was added by an interpolator. What do you think the interpolator meant by "James the brother of the Lord", and why do you think he added it into Paul's letter?


From what Paul writes in that letter, I think it's highly likely that the half-sentence (which is only 10 words) did not mean a literal family blood brother. The reason why I think that is as follows -

1 that claim (if we are allowed to politely call it a "claim" just for the sake of clarity & explanation here) was never again (afaik) repeated anywhere in any of Paul's supposedly "genuine" letters. It was a complete one-off remark.

2 that same James apparently wrote his own gospel where he expressed all sorts of beliefs about "the Christ" but afaik (according to those who have read that gospel), nowhere does that same James ever claim even to have ever met any such person as Jesus, let alone claim to have been his family brother.

3 iirc, in writing about that same meeting where he saw James with others who he describes as the "Pillars of the Church of God", Paul never mentions asking this James person, a single thing about his "brother Jesus". And that same James who he saw at that meeting apparently also never told Paul nor anyone else a single thing about ever being a family brother of Jesus. And remember here that we are talking about Paul having his entire life totally changed by this belief in Jesus, and yet when he meets the actual brother of Jesus, not one word is ever mentioned about any of them knowing or meeting Jesus at all.

4 on the contrary, what Paul did say in his letters was that those people he met as the "Pillars of the Church", inc. James, were claiming to believe in various different people as the messiah, and he rebukes them all for that, where he also tells them that he has no interest in what any of them say or believe about a messiah, and that his own belief is the one true understanding of the prophesised "Christ", because he says that none of those other leaders of the Church had told him anything about the Christ ... he specifically says "the gospel I preach came from no Man" and "nor was I taught it by anyone" ... so he is getting none of that Jesus belief from the Pillars of the Church inc. James, nothing from them at all, and he tells us that they each believed in a variety of deceased or otherwise absent or non-existent names as the one-time Christ upon the Earth.

5 the only sense in which Paul ever suggests that he and James and "500 others at once" and "the twelve" had ever "met" Jesus, was as a spiritual vision of Christ in the heavens. Nobody else, inc. Paul, ever claimed to have met or known Jesus in any other sense ... and that included James in his own gospel who afaik also never claimed to have met any human Jesus.

6 In the same letters, Paul makes it repeatedly clear that his knowledge of Jesus came to him through divine revelation from God, where he says "God was pleased to reveal his Son in me", and where he says that what was revealed to him was a new understanding of "Scripture" where he suddenly realised that the true meaning of ancient messiah prophecy was that "the Christ" (he uses that term so often that I wonder if the word/name "Yehoshua"/"Iesous"/Jesus was actually also yet another later interpolation?) had already descended to Earth from the heavens in order to prove to the faithful that the long-awaited (since at least 500BC) apocalypse of God's final judgement was now very close at hand.

7 the structure of that half sentence about James, is this - it says “other apostles saw I none” then there is a comma or "pause” and then it continues “save James the Lords brother”. That structure looks suspiciously like it may have originally just said “other apostles saw I none” … and then at a later date a Christian copyist decided that he should have also seen James at that time, and so he adds the words “save James” … and then either at that same time or at another later date another copyist decides that the letter should explain who “James” was, and he adds the final 3 words “the Lords brother”. But be careful here, because I am not presenting that as if it think it must have happened that way … I am just pointing out that it is constructed in the form of 3 separate afterthoughts, i.e. the first bit is just to say “other apostles saw I none”, but then someone decides that he should have also met James there, so as an afterthought he adds “save James”, as if to say “oh, and I forgot to mention that James was also there”, and after that there's another afterthought to explain who James was in case they did not know who he was and now he adds “the Lords brother” … I'm just pointing out that the structure of that half-sentence is in the form of a series of additional afterthoughts.

8 the reason to suspect so-called “interpolations” is because after nearly 2000 years, biblical scholars and others eventually realised that much of the writing about Jesus does contain what appear to be later interpolations where scribes who made copies at a later date, decided that certain parts of the original writing had to be changed either to remove something they now disagreed with or to add something which they had now decided should have been included in the original.

9 In that respect of interpolations and later copyists reproductions - we also have to keep in mind that the earliest copies that we actually have for any of Paul's letters most probably date from around 200AD, and not from anywhere near 50 to 60 AD as all biblical scholars like to imply. And that leaves about 150 years of constant copying and re-copying by scribes who were apparently in the habit of altering the original texts. So we really cannot rely on those copies known as P46 to be exactly what was originally written in the letters, and that includes not being at all confident that the ultra-brief half-sentence about James was originally there or in that same form of words.

10 you, along with everyone else who believes in a HJ, are quoting passages from the gospels and letters of the bible. But it is clear that none of the people who wrote those gospels and letters had ever known any such living person as Jesus. In all of that biblical writing, the authors only ever describe their belief in a supernatural being of the past that none of them had ever met. So at best, what evidence there is in the gospels and letters is only evidence of the writers belief in a supernatural deity that the writers had never known.

And please lets be clear - in all of that biblical writing, that is how Jesus was always described, ie as constantly supernatural.

The evidence contained in the bible is indeed evidence of something, but it is not evidence of a human Jesus ever known either to the writers or to anyone else. It is only evidence of how the biblical authors believed in a supernatural scion of Yahweh that none of them had ever met, seen, heard or otherwise known at all.
 
The dating of a manuscript of the gospel of Thomas is sometime in the 4th century.

Nope, from your wikipedia cite

"These three papyrus fragments of Thomas date to between 130 and 250 AD."

That's just the date it was copied, we have no idea when it was actually written, but at least before 250 AD
 
Well, someone conveniently made this:
https://parish.rcdow.org.uk/swissco...4/11/44-Prophecies-Jesus-Christ-Fulfilled.pdf

And while a lot of them are certainly a stretch, I feel like that’s a pretty common complaint about what people do with scripture. And it’s not hard to read Isaiah 53:5-12 as pretty executing-the-messiah-ey. If the entire argument against it is “why would they do that if they weren’t trying to justify events that really happened” it just makes me think of that cartoon kid going "You really think someone would do that? Just go on the Internet and tell lies?"

They are a stretch and it makes more sense that the connection between Jesus and those verses are ad hoc much like people read Nostradamus predictions into modern events. Isaiah itself even states that the "suffering servant" is Israel.
 
From what Paul writes in that letter, I think it's highly likely that the half-sentence (which is only 10 words) did not mean a literal family blood brother. The reason why I think that is as follows -

1 that claim (if we are allowed to politely call it a "claim" just for the sake of clarity & explanation here) was never again (afaik) repeated anywhere in any of Paul's supposedly "genuine" letters. It was a complete one-off remark.

2 that same James apparently wrote his own gospel where he expressed all sorts of beliefs about "the Christ" but afaik (according to those who have read that gospel), nowhere does that same James ever claim even to have ever met any such person as Jesus, let alone claim to have been his family brother.

3 iirc, in writing about that same meeting where he saw James with others who he describes as the "Pillars of the Church of God", Paul never mentions asking this James person, a single thing about his "brother Jesus". And that same James who he saw at that meeting apparently also never told Paul nor anyone else a single thing about ever being a family brother of Jesus. And remember here that we are talking about Paul having his entire life totally changed by this belief in Jesus, and yet when he meets the actual brother of Jesus, not one word is ever mentioned about any of them knowing or meeting Jesus at all.

4 on the contrary, what Paul did say in his letters was that those people he met as the "Pillars of the Church", inc. James, were claiming to believe in various different people as the messiah, and he rebukes them all for that, where he also tells them that he has no interest in what any of them say or believe about a messiah, and that his own belief is the one true understanding of the prophesised "Christ", because he says that none of those other leaders of the Church had told him anything about the Christ ... he specifically says "the gospel I preach came from no Man" and "nor was I taught it by anyone" ... so he is getting none of that Jesus belief from the Pillars of the Church inc. James, nothing from them at all, and he tells us that they each believed in a variety of deceased or otherwise absent or non-existent names as the one-time Christ upon the Earth.

5 the only sense in which Paul ever suggests that he and James and "500 others at once" and "the twelve" had ever "met" Jesus, was as a spiritual vision of Christ in the heavens. Nobody else, inc. Paul, ever claimed to have met or known Jesus in any other sense ... and that included James in his own gospel who afaik also never claimed to have met any human Jesus.

6 In the same letters, Paul makes it repeatedly clear that his knowledge of Jesus came to him through divine revelation from God, where he says "God was pleased to reveal his Son in me", and where he says that what was revealed to him was a new understanding of "Scripture" where he suddenly realised that the true meaning of ancient messiah prophecy was that "the Christ" (he uses that term so often that I wonder if the word/name "Yehoshua"/"Iesous"/Jesus was actually also yet another later interpolation?) had already descended to Earth from the heavens in order to prove to the faithful that the long-awaited (since at least 500BC) apocalypse of God's final judgement was now very close at hand.

7 the structure of that half sentence about James, is this - it says “other apostles saw I none” then there is a comma or "pause” and then it continues “save James the Lords brother”. That structure looks suspiciously like it may have originally just said “other apostles saw I none” … and then at a later date a Christian copyist decided that he should have also seen James at that time, and so he adds the words “save James” … and then either at that same time or at another later date another copyist decides that the letter should explain who “James” was, and he adds the final 3 words “the Lords brother”. But be careful here, because I am not presenting that as if it think it must have happened that way … I am just pointing out that it is constructed in the form of 3 separate afterthoughts, i.e. the first bit is just to say “other apostles saw I none”, but then someone decides that he should have also met James there, so as an afterthought he adds “save James”, as if to say “oh, and I forgot to mention that James was also there”, and after that there's another afterthought to explain who James was in case they did not know who he was and now he adds “the Lords brother” … I'm just pointing out that the structure of that half-sentence is in the form of a series of additional afterthoughts.

8 the reason to suspect so-called “interpolations” is because after nearly 2000 years, biblical scholars and others eventually realised that much of the writing about Jesus does contain what appear to be later interpolations where scribes who made copies at a later date, decided that certain parts of the original writing had to be changed either to remove something they now disagreed with or to add something which they had now decided should have been included in the original.

9 In that respect of interpolations and later copyists reproductions - we also have to keep in mind that the earliest copies that we actually have for any of Paul's letters most probably date from around 200AD, and not from anywhere near 50 to 60 AD as all biblical scholars like to imply. And that leaves about 150 years of constant copying and re-copying by scribes who were apparently in the habit of altering the original texts. So we really cannot rely on those copies known as P46 to be exactly what was originally written in the letters, and that includes not being at all confident that the ultra-brief half-sentence about James was originally there or in that same form of words.

10 you, along with everyone else who believes in a HJ, are quoting passages from the gospels and letters of the bible. But it is clear that none of the people who wrote those gospels and letters had ever known any such living person as Jesus. In all of that biblical writing, the authors only ever describe their belief in a supernatural being of the past that none of them had ever met. So at best, what evidence there is in the gospels and letters is only evidence of the writers belief in a supernatural deity that the writers had never known.

And please lets be clear - in all of that biblical writing, that is how Jesus was always described, ie as constantly supernatural.

The evidence contained in the bible is indeed evidence of something, but it is not evidence of a human Jesus ever known either to the writers or to anyone else. It is only evidence of how the biblical authors believed in a supernatural scion of Yahweh that none of them had ever met, seen, heard or otherwise known at all.
I have to say it's posts like that, polite well reasoned etc that has made me believe a mythical Jesus is more likely. Excellent post
 
Nope, there is nothing on the OT that says the messiah must be killed or crucified and no Jews prior to Christianity believed so. The early Christian were rationalizing it ad hoc. You have no reason for why some Jews would suddenly read that from the scriptures.

NT Jesus was based on irrational Jewish, Greek and Roman mythology- never history.

Justin's First Apology
And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.
 
Nope, from your wikipedia cite

"These three papyrus fragments of Thomas date to between 130 and 250 AD."

That's just the date it was copied, we have no idea when it was actually written, but at least before 250 AD

Well, you still don't know when and who really wrote those fragments of gThomas.

And, you still have no historical evidence of Thomas.

The existing fragments of gThomas are worthless to determine an historical Thomas much more an historical Jesus.
 
NT Jesus was based on irrational Jewish, Greek and Roman mythology- never history.

Justin's First Apology

That quote does nothing to prove your point. Justin sees Jesus as a real person who was crucified (which doesn't happen to purely celestial beings). Justin Martyr is clearly saying that what Christians believe is no less crazy then what pagans believe.
 
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Now whos defensive? You accused HJ proponents of being defensive and hostile so I pointed to a MJ proponent who does the same



The problem is that one "side" has a very childish and inaccurate view of how history works. Anybody who says "no contemporary records of Jesus" can't be taken seriously.



What has been found is that a historical Jesus exist regardless of the gospel having of fiction and bias. You can't explain why people then would make up a crucified messiah.


I don't think I mentioned being “defensive”, did I? I simply asked you why you were saying that dejudge was my friend, and it's right there in your own quote!


And it certainly has not quote "been found is that a historical Jesus exist" ... you state that as a certainty. So you must therefore have a proof for that. OK, so where is this proof of Jesus?

You really need to be more cautious about jumping to unjustified conclusions like that. And especially so when all you really have to go on as evidence is a bible filled with what is undeniable fiction about Jesus beliefs.

Then you say that sceptics here (or elsewhere) are being quote "very childish and inaccurate view of how history works" ... but it does not matter how you or bible scholars think historical studies should work or what methods they decide to use ... what matters is what evidence do they or you produce to show that any of the biblical writers actually met a living Jesus? ...

... there is no such evidence,"contemporary" or otherwise.

The actual evidence is that the anonymous individuals who wrote gospels under the false names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, had never met any such person as Jesus. And afaik even the most faithful of Christian biblical scholars, accept that as a "fact" ... none of them had ever known Jesus.

And similarly, Paul's letters make very clear that he had never met anyone called Jesus either!

So none of them had ever known any such person as Jesus.

In that case it is not possible for them to give any of their own personal knowledge of Jesus. All they can offer as evidence is to describe their own religious beliefs ... and those beliefs were to say that this figure of the Christ was a supernatural scion of God. Their evidence is a claim of the supernatural.

But that is not evidence of Jesus. All that is, is evidence of what highly devout religious fanatics believed 2000 years ago. So where did they get their Jesus beliefs from if none of them had ever known any such person as Jesus? Well Paul tells us very clearly where he got his belief from, i.e. where he got his “evidence” from – he got it from divine revelation and from ancient religious scripture!
 
I have to say it's posts like that, polite well reasoned etc that has made me believe a mythical Jesus is more likely. Excellent post
I'm sorry, theheno, but the points raised by IanS's in his response, while certainly polite, are really REALLY terrible. I'll spend time going over each of his points and post the results in a few hours. Can I ask you, as an independent arbiter, to evaluate his and my responses please?
 
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I don't think I mentioned being “defensive”, did I? I simply asked you why you were saying that dejudge was my friend, and it's right there in your own quote!


And it certainly has not quote "been found is that a historical Jesus exist" ... you state that as a certainty. So you must therefore have a proof for that. OK, so where is this proof of Jesus?

You really need to be more cautious about jumping to unjustified conclusions like that. And especially so when all you really have to go on as evidence is a bible filled with what is undeniable fiction about Jesus beliefs.

Then you say that sceptics here (or elsewhere) are being quote "very childish and inaccurate view of how history works" ... but it does not matter how you or bible scholars think historical studies should work or what methods they decide to use ... what matters is what evidence do they or you produce to show that any of the biblical writers actually met a living Jesus? ...

... there is no such evidence,"contemporary" or otherwise.

The actual evidence is that the anonymous individuals who wrote gospels under the false names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, had never met any such person as Jesus. And afaik even the most faithful of Christian biblical scholars, accept that as a "fact" ... none of them had ever known Jesus.

And similarly, Paul's letters make very clear that he had never met anyone called Jesus either!

So none of them had ever known any such person as Jesus.

In that case it is not possible for them to give any of their own personal knowledge of Jesus. All they can offer as evidence is to describe their own religious beliefs ... and those beliefs were to say that this figure of the Christ was a supernatural scion of God. Their evidence is a claim of the supernatural.

But that is not evidence of Jesus. All that is, is evidence of what highly devout religious fanatics believed 2000 years ago. So where did they get their Jesus beliefs from if none of them had ever known any such person as Jesus? Well Paul tells us very clearly where he got his belief from, i.e. where he got his “evidence” from – he got it from divine revelation and from ancient religious scripture!

Paul also says that Jesus was a human numerous times. You can't explain away every mention of that as forgery. He also met people who knew Jesus.
 
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