Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Emily's Cat]

What exactly do you want? You want to be able to air opinions you know are controversial but you want to escape any negative consequences that might result? Like, a written pass granting you immunity from saying whatever you want, no matter how unpopular they are? I don't think they make those anymore. Although asking for one of those is less ridiculous than expecting everyone else to change their opinions so you don't have to worry about being disagreed with should you fail to keep yours quiet.

You don't have the ability to just keep your mouth shut? What is your job that it requires discussing transsexuality? What kind of friends do you have that are so intolerant of different opinions? Maybe you shouldn't be friends if you have to hide what you actually think.

So... We're not supposed to give a crap what other people think... but we're supposed to keep our mouths shut if people might not like our thoughts?

On a discussion board, no less.

Interesting approach.

 

[The Atheist]

No more can I tell you what a paraplegic feels like, and any claim that I 'feel like a paraplegic' is inane.

Excellent analogy.

And that's fine with me, because I don't care what anybody thinks in their own head about any subject at all. It's how they act that matters.

That's the entire point of the thread - if people kept it in their heads, that would be fine, but they appear to be demanding rights that diminish the rights of others, which doesn't seem like a good thing to me.

I don't think sports are so overwhelmingly important that all social practices must be geared towards making sports easier to administer, sorry.

Wash your mouth out right now!

Sport isn't even a case of life and death - it's much more serious than that.

Ogling? Do you think I would ogle? I assure you I am perfectly capable of being in the presence of naked women without ogling.

You're a better man than me, because I'm not.

I'm sorry, and yes, I'm sexist and ageist (and lookist) but if an attractive woman takes her clothes off near me, I'm going to ogle.

As discreetly as possible, of course, and with the purest of intentions, but I could no more avoid looking than I can shut my eyes while driving.

 

[TragicMonkey]

So... We're not supposed to give a crap what other people think... but we're supposed to keep our mouths shut if people might not like our thoughts?

On a discussion board, no less.

Interesting approach.

You're the one worried about consequences if you say something that upsets people. You can't have it both ways: you can say whatever you want whenver you want, or you can enjoy freedom from other people possibly objecting.

And I didn't say the same suggestion applies online as in real life. Unless you're mingling the two, like people who do the Facebook or similar that tie online and real life together under their actual name.

 

[TragicMonkey]

That's the entire point of the thread - if people kept it in their heads, that would be fine, but they appear to be demanding rights that diminish the rights of others, which doesn't seem like a good thing to me.

Ah, yes, "it's MY right to exclude YOU from doing what YOU want to do." It's the same thing the wacky religions say when they explain why I shouldn't be allowed to get married.

 

[Belz...]

You don't have the ability to just keep your mouth shut? What is your job that it requires discussing transsexuality? What kind of friends do you have that are so intolerant of different opinions? Maybe you shouldn't be friends if you have to hide what you actually think.

Ah, so now the problem isn't that I shouldn't care about what people think of me, it's that I should just shut up so that they don't get to judge me. It's my fault if I lose my job because they didn't agree with what I said. I should never offend anyone, intentionally or accidentally.

Seriously, you don't seem to have a position or arguments on this discussion. You dance from one argument to another whenever one argument is shown wrong. Seems to me like you're just being a contrarian -- looking to disagree someway, somehow. If I'm wrong, then please make a cogent, consistent argument for your position.

 

[tyr_13]

Don't know if it was shared between posters arguing that trans women are harmful to women for reinforcing gender stereotypes while at the same time using matching those stereotypes enough to their liking to be allowed into facilities, and citing radical feminist theory while complaining about it being identified as such, but Republican Senator James Lankford quotes Rowling's totally-no-against-trans writings while blocking a vote on LGBTQ protections.

As long as someone has 'concerns', protections from being kicked out of your apartment can wait.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Ah, so now the problem isn't that I shouldn't care about what people think of me, it's that I should just shut up so that they don't get to judge me. It's my fault if I lose my job because they didn't agree with what I said. I should never offend anyone, intentionally or accidentally.

It's certainly your fault if you lose your job because you don't have the sense to stay professional. Religion, sex, politics: interesting topics, but not things you should talk about at work. Such a terrible burden on your precious freedom! I know, but unless you own your own company or are so wealthy you don't have to work at all, it's a sensible restriction most people operate under.

Seriously, you don't seem to have a position or arguments on this discussion. You dance from one argument to another whenever one argument is shown wrong. Seems to me like you're just being a contrarian -- looking to disagree someway, somehow. If I'm wrong, then please make a cogent, consistent argument for your position.

I say what I like, I don't have to please you, write a dissertation, or design a sociopolitical platform. It's a messageboard, not a political party subcommittee. You are absolutely free to just ignore any or all of my remarks. That would probably be more fruitful than trying to bully me out of the thread because you disagree with me.

 

[Belz...]

It's certainly your fault if you lose your job because you don't have the sense to stay professional.

We're talking about losing your job for saying something that has NOTHING to do with your job or in the context of your job.

You continue to tailor your argument in order to maintain a state of disagreement. I see no reason to continue further if you're going to be disingenuous.

That would probably be more fruitful than trying to bully me out of the thread because you disagree with me.

How can you possibly characterise a plea for you to make a consistent argument with bullying you out of the thread?

You're not being persecuted here. You're the one who said you didn't care about the topic (your latest excuse), so instead of projecting that onto me, why did YOU engage me on said topic?

 

[Belz...]

- "Could you make a cogent, consistent argument for your position?"
- "Oh, my god, I can't believe you're trying to bully me out of the discussion!"

 

[Meadmaker]

Because I don't give a **** about sports, and reject the ridiculous implication that whatever social policy affects trans people must work for sporting competitions.

An awful lot of people who support allowing trans-women to compete in women's sports don't give a **** about sports.

 

[TragicMonkey]

And yet ANOTHER dishonest response.

We're talking about losing your job for saying something that has NOTHING to do with your job or in the context of your job.

What on earth job do you have, that you don't think you could/would/should be fired for attracting controversy? If you were to go upon Facebook and post something dreadful would you not face any consequences?

You continue to tailor your argument in order to maintain a state of disagreement. I see no reason to continue further if you're going to be disingenuous.

Wow, that takes the cake. That's just a blantant lie. How can you possibly characterise a plea for you to make a consistent argument with bullying you out of the thread?

How about you take your life frustrations on someone else? No one's oppressing you, here, but I'm starting to understand that a LOT of your interactions on this forum are predicated on a pretense of being persecuted.

Yeah, I'm the one pitching a fit right now. Projection, much?

 

[Joe Random]

An awful lot of people who support allowing trans-women to compete in women's sports don't give a **** about sports.

And there are people like me who don't give a **** about sport, but recognize that it's important to others so maybe the concept of fairness deserves to be heard even if it will never impact me directly in any conceivable form.

I hate comic book movies. So I tend to stay out of comic book movie threads because my contribution would basically be "stop caring about things I don't".

 

[Belz...]

What on earth job do you have, that you don't think you could/would/should be fired for attracting controversy?

Now you're just justifying mob justice. Do you really believe that holding an unpopular opinion is cause for dismissal? Do you really believe that saying something that a small subset of the population is willing to crusade to get you fired over counts as a controversy?

You are again moving the goalposts.

Yeah, I'm the one pitching a fit right now. Projection, much?

YOU are the one who engaged me. YOU are the one who mischaracterised me (and two other posters) and continued to do so even after you were called on it. YOU are the one who then made an unrelated argument when called on that again, and then YOU are the one who claimed you didn't care about it all, only to then lie about me bullying you in response to a request for a consistent argument. YOU are the one who has been shown to consistently adjust your argument to make sure the disagreement continues despite my attempts to clarify and steer the discussion back.

So you tell me: who's looing for a fight?

 

[Meadmaker]

Kindness doesn't mean you have to accommodate other peoples' unreasonable requests.

Indeed it doesn't. The implications are left as an exercise for the reader.


We could continue to argue about what is most kind, but the existence of the argument demonstrates that it is not universally agreed upon. I believe that the transperson has an even kinder option, and one that imposes on her not a whit, and the fact that it is so frequently rejected suggests that maximization of kindness is not really the goal.

I have only ever known, personally, one transperson who was in high school. FtM. I met "her" when she was six, and right from the start, everyone knew there was something different about her. I heard a group of nine year olds discussing whether she was really a girl. At age 14, she declared she wasn't.

In high school, the now "he" opted to use a private changing room when necessary. Wise choice, in my opinion. Contemplation of the implications of that decision and why it was made might lead to some insight on the issue.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Now you're just justifying mob justice. Do you really believe that holding an unpopular opinion is cause for dismissal? Do you really believe that saying something that a small subset of the population is willing to crusade to get you fired over counts as a controversy?

You are again moving the goalposts.

It's hardly "justifying mob justice" to point out that in most industries employees are expected to hold certain levels of professionalism, one aspect of which is "don't embarrass your employer". You can certainly believe whatever you like about any controversial topic. But airing it out at work? Or publishing it publicly where your coworkers and customers can see it? That's not sensible, and it's not professional. You have every right to say whatever you like; you do not have the right to enjoy total immunity from any negative reaction to what you say.

YOU are the one who engaged me. YOU are the one who mischaracterised me (and two other posters) and continued to do so even after you were called on it. YOU are the one who then made an unrelated argument when called on that again, and then YOU are the one who claimed you didn't care about it all, only to then lie about me bullying you in response to a request for a consistent argument. YOU are the one who has been shown to consistently adjust your argument to make sure the disagreement continues despite my attempts to clarify and steer the discussion back.

So you tell me: who's looing for a fight?

That's a lot of accusations from someone who's not looing for a fight.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Indeed it doesn't. The implications are left as an exercise for the reader.


We could continue to argue about what is most kind, but the existence of the argument demonstrates that it is not universally agreed upon. I believe that the transperson has an even kinder option, and one that imposes on her not a whit, and the fact that it is so frequently rejected suggests that maximization of kindness is not really the goal.

I have only ever known, personally, one transperson who was in high school. FtM. I met "her" when she was six, and right from the start, everyone knew there was something different about her. I heard a group of nine year olds discussing whether she was really a girl. At age 14, she declared she wasn't.

In high school, the now "he" opted to use a private changing room when necessary. Wise choice, in my opinion. Contemplation of the implications of that decision and why it was made might lead to some insight on the issue.

Such a solution doesn't work if the person doesn't want people to know they are trans, though. It forces them to come out, which history and current events have proven is not safe for them. Is some lady worried about a trans woman seeing her in the locker room? The trans woman is worried about getting murdered.

 

[Belz...]

It's hardly "justifying mob justice" to point out that in most industries employees are expected to hold certain levels of professionalism, one aspect of which is "don't embarrass your employer". You can certainly believe whatever you like about any controversial topic. But airing it out at work? Or publishing it publicly where your coworkers and customers can see it? That's not sensible, and it's not professional.

In this day and age anyone can see anything you say. That amounts to saying that we shouldn't voice our opinions, or else. As I said, you are in favour of mob justice.

That's a lot of accusations from someone who's not looing for a fight.

So accusing someone of looking for a fight is itself looking for a fight?

You really should stop digging that hole you put yourself in. I'm not the one who did the things you did today, and they are well documented.

 

[TragicMonkey]

In this day and age anyone can see anything you say. That amounts to saying that we shouldn't voice our opinions, or else. As I said, you are in favour of mob justice.

No, they can't. Sheesh. You don't have to say everything you think online under your real name. You don't have to blast on Twitter every stray thought that passes through your mind, even if the president does. Suggesting professionalism requires a degree of discretion in choosing the time, place, and audience for discussing particular topics definitely doesn't "amount to saying that we shouldn't voice our opinions", and it certainly isn't "in favor of mob justice".

Christ, do you tell a lady that dress makes her look fat? At a family dinner do you tell Grandma her pot roast tastes bad? Do you tell a synogogue full of your employer's clients that monotheism is idiotic? There's a time and place for everything. If you can't manage that you may need help with a social media addiction.

 

[Belz...]

No, they can't. Sheesh. You don't have to say everything you think online under your real name.

Well no, but as usual we have to deal with real people, not hypothetical characters. Hundreds of millions of people use social media, have smartphones, etc. And they're all connected. It's not hard for someone's tweets to be connected to a real person and address, and for some ****-face crusader to decide to cause trouble because they have, personally, labeled that person a bigot, irrespective of whether society at large agrees.

Christ, do you tell a lady that dress makes her look fat?

Similarily-stupid question: do you never tell anyone anything that might be interpreted as offensive to anyone who could hypothetically be made aware of it?

We're not talking about me, here, or about some hypothetical nonsense. We're talking about real people who have their lives torn apart because someone, somewhere, decided that their thought process was incorrect. Yeah, maybe they should be more careful about what they post, but that is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Meadmaker]

Such a solution doesn't work if the person doesn't want people to know they are trans, though. It forces them to come out, which history and current events have proven is not safe for them. Is some lady worried about a trans woman seeing her in the locker room? The trans woman is worried about getting murdered.

Good point.

Except that no one really cares about such cases. If they are capable of passing and they are discrete in the locker room, then it's a non-issue. I would not advocate making using the "wrong" locker room a criminal offense. As long as no one knew she was trans, no issues.


However, the specific cases I was most recently discussing were to do with high schools, where everyone already knows, because they probably went to grade school with the person.


The fact that one word, "transgender", describes so many different people at different phases of transition, and different levels of intended transition (i.e. some people are planning surgery, some people never intend to seek it.) sometimes makes things difficult. It mostly becomes a problem because people want to twist other people's arguments, and the wide range of possible meanings opens up lots of opportunites, but that's life on the internet.