Split Thread Tearing Down Statues Associated With Racial Injustice

[Garb]

I think it's worth trying to minimize the "sometimes". Especially when it's so ridiculously easy to do so.

Sure, I don't know of many people who are advocating for the mob to do stupid stuff.

But what is the overall point being made when people point to these examples of people tearing down statues that do not have the justification for going down that others do?

 

[Agatha]

Please don't bicker, and don't make your arguments personal.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

 

[Mumbles]

I agree with this. Sometimes it takes a bit of rule-breaking to break the complacency and get something done. I have some sympathy.

In this case, though, I think we're throwing out the good with the bad, and I think that was predictable as the statue destruction began. The crowds seemed kind of mindless, and I think that has been proven by subsequent events.

You may think so. Others may strongly disagree. Or, maybe they're just pissed off because the US has basically thrown in white kids with the nonwhite kids now, while giving the police less oversight and more toys to torment people with, an d they want to smash something. It'll vary from person to person.

Washington is rather obvious as far as anger goes. U.S. Grant? Hero of the Civil War, inherited a single slave and freed him as soon as he could, remarkable memoirs. Personally, I lean towards rather liking him.

But if you're familiar with the police violence threads, you may remember that I often say that the highest per capita death rate is actually among Native Americans, not black Americans. And I note the same about environmental racism, and many other issues. And Grant's record towards the Plains tribes was bad, to put it mildly.

Again, statues can be replaced. With what can be debated. I'm still more worried about murderous rightwingers - police or otherwise.

 

[wareyin]

I think it's worth trying to minimize the "sometimes". Especially when it's so ridiculously easy to do so.

I think we can all agree on that. It would have been trivially easy to remove the offensive statues years ago, which would have resulted in no mob now. Even easier (and less costly!) had they simply not put up all these statues designed and intended to intimidate black people within the last century.

 

[Brainster]

I'm sorry, what gave you the idea that I was limiting things to those 2 cities rather than the country as a whole?

So let me see if I can get this straight. People in San Francisco were frustrated that "They left the Confederate statues up for so long (somewhere else) against the will of the people that tensions were bound to snap," and so the people of San Francisco went out and pulled down the statue of the guy who defeated the Confederates. I guess if you think about it hard enough, Grant was associated with racial injustice, just not with perpetuating it.

That flippancy aside, you know what I think really happened? I think a bunch of folks saw people pulling down statues and said, "I gotta pull down a statue, too!" Nothing more thoughtful than that.

 

[trustbutverify]

Sure, I don't know of many people who are advocating for the mob to do stupid stuff.

One man's stupid is another man's necessary.

But what is the overall point being made when people point to these examples of people tearing down statues that do not have the justification for going down that others do?

Justification is subjective, and white power lecturing AA's on what is and isn't justified is hilarious in a tragic kind of way. But, in a nation where reason and rationality have become insult, and the most obscene conspiracy drivel has become heroic, I'm wary about where stupidity for a good cause can lead.

 

[Meadmaker]

That flippancy aside, you know what I think really happened? I think a bunch of folks saw people pulling down statues and said, "I gotta pull down a statue, too!" Nothing more thoughtful than that.

That's pretty much it.

 

[Myriad]

No, it has not. Which is why all monuments to the civil rights movement should be destroyed immediately.

All the ones that say "Mission Accomplished!" and "Look how well the elite establishment treats minorities now!" probably should be. Because they'd be lying propaganda and not monuments to any actual thing.

If you take over a workplace and lower the wages, eliminate job security, institute all-part-time staffing to reduce benefits, and outsource the best paying jobs, sooner or later someone's going to tear down the "We're All Doing Great Together!" sign. Get used to this.

 

[wareyin]

So let me see if I can get this straight. People in San Francisco were frustrated that "They left the Confederate statues up for so long (somewhere else) against the will of the people that tensions were bound to snap," and so the people of San Francisco went out and pulled down the statue of the guy who defeated the Confederates. I guess if you think about it hard enough, Grant was associated with racial injustice, just not with perpetuating it.

That flippancy aside, you know what I think really happened? I think a bunch of folks saw people pulling down statues and said, "I gotta pull down a statue, too!" Nothing more thoughtful than that.

That sounds like what several of us have been saying. Gov't refuses to take down statues intended to intimidate black people, eventually people snap and take them down without the gov't, a very tiny few statues that weren't intended to intimidate get caught up in it.

 

[Mike!]

Anyone know the status of the individual who suffered an unfortunate combination of wrong location, a statue, and gravity recently?

 

[Meadmaker]

That sounds like what several of us have been saying. Gov't refuses to take down statues intended to intimidate black people, eventually people snap and take them down without the gov't, a very tiny few statues that weren't intended to intimidate get caught up in it.

Have you actually counted the Confederate versus the non-Confederate statues that have been pulled down? I think the non-Confederates have taken the lead at this point.

ETA: I am counting "unauthorized" pulldowns.

 

[bruto]

Is peoples outrage at "Racial Injustice" exceptional enough to justify removing certain statues or busts while retaining those depicting individuals who otherwise come off just as bad, if not worse, as long as they are not otherwise associated with "Racial Injustice"?

Is it necessary to solve every problem at once before you can address any of them? This comes off very much like the moral triage argument we often hear when someone applies effort to something someone else disagrees with. How dare you put your energy into (art/animal welfare/voter registration/birth control/women's rights, etc. etc.) when there is still (choose huge problem preferably perennial and insoluble) in the world?

That said, I think that racial injustice, with or without the gratuitous quotation marks, might just qualify as being important enough, at least for some people, such as those whose ancestors were slaves, and who grew up under segregation and whose lives are still infected with the legacy of legal bias and its continuing, insidious echoes. Or even, perhaps for us Northern white folks whose ancestors fought and occasionally died trying to save the Union from the murderous enslaving traitors whose statues still stand like an upraised finger to democracy.

 

[wareyin]

Have you actually counted the Confederate versus the non-Confederate statues that have been pulled down? I think the non-Confederates have taken the lead at this point.

ETA: I am counting "unauthorized" pulldowns.

Your previous list counted statues that had not been pulled down, as well as lumped all Confederate statues together into 2 counts for some reason.

I can't say I'm on the cutting edge of statue protection and statue outrage, so I have not counted them all. I'm fairly certain you haven't either, given your list.

 

[Meadmaker]

Your previous list counted statues that had not been pulled down, as well as lumped all Confederate statues together into 2 counts for some reason.

I can't say I'm on the cutting edge of statue protection and statue outrage, so I have not counted them all. I'm fairly certain you haven't either, given your list.

I haven't found an easy to digest exhaustive list. Today I counted nine nonconfederates, and four confederates. That isn't including the attempted takedowns of Onate and Jackson, but it also doesn't count any "generic Confederate soldier takedowns. I'm pretty sure there are at least two of those.

 

[wareyin]

I haven't found an easy to digest exhaustive list. Today I counted nine nonconfederates, and four confederates. That isn't including the attempted takedowns of Onate and Jackson, but it also doesn't count any "generic Confederate soldier takedowns. I'm pretty sure there are at least two of those.

When you are talking about nonconfederates, is there some reason to exclude those who didn't fight for the Confederacy but did make themselves famous by fighting for racism, basically the Confederate cause? For instance Edward Carmack?

Also, why aren't we counting generic Confederate soldiers in the Confederate statues list?

 

[trustbutverify]

I think we can all agree on that. It would have been trivially easy to remove the offensive statues years ago, which would have resulted in no mob now.

No question. However, the heavily armed mobs of right-wing southern "heritage defenders" might have made the effort slightly more difficult than trivial. A great idea would have been for the most passionate and outraged white allies to assemble their own mobs, grab some gear and pull all of those monuments down themselves, but many of them appear to have been busy that day.

Even easier (and less costly!) had they simply not put up all these statues designed and intended to intimidate black people within the last century.

Even easier than that would have been for the Constitutional Convention to do its job and render chattel slavery unconstitutional. But since both the framers and our most enlightened white "comrades" have failed so spectacularly, I guess it's left to the peasants to do the heavy lifting for them..

 

[Arcade22]

Is it necessary to solve every problem at once before you can address any of them? This comes off very much like the moral triage argument we often hear when someone applies effort to something someone else disagrees with. How dare you put your energy into (art/animal welfare/voter registration/birth control/women's rights, etc. etc.) when there is still (choose huge problem preferably perennial and insoluble) in the world?

Well since people are already pulling down statues I was thinking that we could try having some foresight and pull down some other statues depicting historical individuals who have done some quite questionable actions. So we avoid this senseless outburst of mob rule.

Is being a slave owner okay as long as you aren't racist and have slaves with all kinds of racial or ethnic backgrounds?

 

[bruto]

Well since people are already pulling down statues I was thinking that we could try having some foresight and pull down some other statues depicting historical individuals who have done some quite questionable actions. So we avoid this senseless outburst of mob rule.

Is being a slave owner okay as long as you aren't racist and have slaves with all kinds of racial or ethnic backgrounds?

That's an odd way of putting it if you're serious, as what you seem to be saying is that the "senseless outburst of mob rule" is senseless because it doesn't go far enough. If you include yourself in the "we" who could try, you could, presumably, take it on yourself to recommend other statues to be demolished, rather than presuming that your standards should be everyone's.

 

[Meadmaker]

When you are talking about nonconfederates, is there some reason to exclude those who didn't fight for the Confederacy but did make themselves famous by fighting for racism, basically the Confederate cause? For instance Edward Carmack?

Among Confederates, I only count Confederates. That's simple enough. If he was actually active at the time of the Civil War, I would count him.

Among the justifications for pulling down the statues was that they were treasonous. Carmack wasn't treasonous.

Also, why aren't we counting generic Confederate soldiers in the Confederate statues list?

I simply didn't have a list of them, so I didn't know how many there were. They should go in the "Confederate" list, for sure.


However, Wikipedia to the rescue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ials_removed_during_the_George_Floyd_protests

It has every statue removed, and listed whether it was removed by the authorities, or toppled by the crowds.

I leave it to readers to judge whether the non-Confederates on the list are, in your words, "a very tiny few statues".

Miscellaneous corrections to previous posts: Miguel de Cervantes' statue was merely vandalized, not removed.
Robert E Lee did make the list of the toppled, not merely vandalized.
The final score from Wikipedia among the toppled was 13 non-confederate, 9 confederate, and Edward Carmack. (No "attempted removals" included this time, and only US statues.)
Among the removed, but not toppled, it's a close fight with the Confederates slightly edging out the non-confederates. If you include "Planned removals", the Confederates open up a wider lead.

One thing I learned on that page was the Cherokee Nation aligned with the Confederacy. I never knew that. Two statues of the Cherokee leader, and Confederate general, were removed, not toppled.

 

[Thermal]

Among Confederates, I only count Confederates. That's simple enough. If he was actually active at the time of the Civil War, I would count him.

Among the justifications for pulling down the statues was that they were treasonous. Carmack wasn't treasonous.



I simply didn't have a list of them, so I didn't know how many there were. They should go in the "Confederate" list, for sure.


However, Wikipedia to the rescue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ials_removed_during_the_George_Floyd_protests

It has every statue removed, and listed whether it was removed by the authorities, or toppled by the crowds.

I will leave it to the reader to judge whether the your statement about "a very tiny few statues that weren't intended to intimidate" is an accurate description.

I leave it to readers to judge whether

...need.... CLOSURE....