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Split Thread Tearing Down Statues Associated With Racial Injustice

JoeMorgue said:
Your characterization of Black Americans simply not wanting to look at monument glorifying people who fought a war to keep them in chains as "melodramatic with childish egos" is so offensive I'm surprised you're not arguing there should be a statue to it put up somewhere.
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You thought I was describing Black Americans pulling down Confederate monuments?

Nope.
 
Meadmaker said:
So, when I called Johnny's message "hilarious", the topic wasn't any particular statues, whether of Lord North, Saddam Hussein, or Robert E. Lee. It wasn't about a specific statue. It's about commemorative statues in general.

With that in mind, let me elaborate on why I find JK's post hilarious.

First, if what I described is not the purpose of a statue, then could anyone please describe what it might be? I'm pretty sure that's what statues are for. You could phrase it differently, but I think that's it.

On the other hand, I am open to counter suggestions, but JK didn't offer any. He just said the mine was "patently false". Classic forum speak. When you don't agree, if you say something like "patently false", it's great emphasis, but without actually contributing any thought. You could say, "I don't agree with that.", but what's the fun in that? It makes it sound like it's just someone's opinion.

But the icing on the cake to make it hilarious is that the people who are demanding the statues be removed are doing it specifically because they are serving the exact role that I am describing, but the statue-pullers think that the people that we are holding up as models for emulation are not worthy of that role. That is the entire reason that they want Robert E. Lee pulled down. Previous generations put up a statue of Lee precisely so that they could say, "This was a good man who fought for our (racist) way of life. We should remember him and emulate him!" The current generation is saying, "We don't think so. He fought to keep slaves. Let's get his statue out of there so that people don't emulate him."

So my "patently false" interpretation is exactly the justification for removing the statues.


Or....maybe not. Maybe someone else can describe the role of a statue that has nothing to do with what I said that role was, and maybe someone can describe why the statues should be removed, without saying something about the role of the statues that isn't substantially similar to what I said.



And....just as a reminder, because people sometimes forget things or leap to assumptions if they haven't read the whole thread (or even if they have). I think the vast majority of the Confederate monuments should come down.
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I did offer a “counter suggestion”. It’s weird that you missed it, considering that it was in a post you responded to. Maybe next time double check that before you launch into a long and tedious screed.

But since you missed it the first time, here you go: Statues aren’t historical documents. They’re monuments. They are to honor and commemorate, not serve as a chronicle of events. Their removal in no way impacts the historical record.
 
johnny karate said:
I did offer a “counter suggestion”. It’s weird that you missed it, considering that it was in a post you responded to. Maybe next time double check that before you launch into a long and tedious screed.

But since you missed it the first time, here you go: Statues aren’t historical documents. They’re monuments. They are to honor and commemorate, not serve as a chronicle of events. Their removal in no way impacts the historical record.
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So I said, "So, in the grand scheme of things, they're just statues, but they do say something about what we want to be as a people. They say something about what we want to tell the next generation is worthy of emulation."

And you said "They are to honor and commemorate"

Potato Potahto.
 
Add Colonel Hans Christian Heg to the list.

"A group tore down the statue of Col. Hans Christian Heg and threw it into Lake Monona, the station reported. Heg was a Norwegian migrant who fought for the Union in the Civil War, according to the Wisconsin Historical Society.

The group also pulled down the Forward statue outside the State Capitol -- which the Wisconsin Historical Society said symbolizes devotion and progress, WKOW said."

ETA: Of course, I had never heard of Hans Christian Heg, so here's what wikipedia has to say:

"Hans Christian Heg (December 21, 1829 – September 20, 1863) was a Norwegian American journalist, anti-slavery activist, politician and soldier, best known for leading the Scandinavian 15th Wisconsin Volunteer Regiment in the American Civil War. He died of the wounds he received at the Battle of Chickamauga.[1]"
 
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Meadmaker said:
Add Colonel Hans Christian Heg to the list.

"A group tore down the statue of Col. Hans Christian Heg and threw it into Lake Monona, the station reported. Heg was a Norwegian migrant who fought for the Union in the Civil War, according to the Wisconsin Historical Society.

The group also pulled down the Forward statue outside the State Capitol -- which the Wisconsin Historical Society said symbolizes devotion and progress, WKOW said."

ETA: Of course, I had never heard of Hans Christian Heg, so here's what wikipedia has to say:

"Hans Christian Heg (December 21, 1829 – September 20, 1863) was a Norwegian American journalist, anti-slavery activist, politician and soldier, best known for leading the Scandinavian 15th Wisconsin Volunteer Regiment in the American Civil War. He died of the wounds he received at the Battle of Chickamauga.[1]"
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Obviously an evil, racist *******. Statue had to go!
 
Meadmaker said:
Add Colonel Hans Christian Heg to the list.

"A group tore down the statue of Col. Hans Christian Heg and threw it into Lake Monona, the station reported. Heg was a Norwegian migrant who fought for the Union in the Civil War, according to the Wisconsin Historical Society.

The group also pulled down the Forward statue outside the State Capitol -- which the Wisconsin Historical Society said symbolizes devotion and progress, WKOW said."

ETA: Of course, I had never heard of Hans Christian Heg, so here's what wikipedia has to say:

"Hans Christian Heg (December 21, 1829 – September 20, 1863) was a Norwegian American journalist, anti-slavery activist, politician and soldier, best known for leading the Scandinavian 15th Wisconsin Volunteer Regiment in the American Civil War. He died of the wounds he received at the Battle of Chickamauga.[1]"
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Intersectionality to the rescue! He did not allow transgender troops to serve in his volunteer regiment, and therefore was transphobic. Off with his (statue's) head!
 
Big deal! Protesters pulled down the wrong statue. I don't think Hans Christian Heg will be offended by their mistake.
I guess that the intended moral of the story for right wingers is that all statues of slave owners, slave traders and racists should be left in place because of this.
 
dann said:
Big deal! Protesters pulled down the wrong statue. I don't think Hans Christian Heg will be offended by their mistake.
I guess that the intended moral of the story for right wingers is that all statues of slave owners, slave traders and racists should be left in place because of this.
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Indeed. They left the Confederate statues up for so long against the will of the people that tensions were bound to snap. Now that people have rebelled, a very, very few (in proportion) of statues to good people have been caught up in the anti-bad people statue crusade. "Oh, no, the horrors" scream those who fought to keep up statues honoring bad people as they dive for the fainting couch, "now look what you've done!"
 
It certainly does appear to have been a poor decision to do nothing until mobs formed, because mobs are pretty much by definition out of control and not well behaved. But I also wonder how certain it is that the same mobs are doing all the damage. We've seen in the BLM demonstrations that police and right wing agitators have engaged in subversion and misdirection in order to discredit them and to provide excuses for further repression. So I wonder (actually wonder, not assert) whether all the destruction is being done by the same mobs.
 
dann said:
Big deal! Protesters pulled down the wrong statue. I don't think Hans Christian Heg will be offended by their mistake.
I guess that the intended moral of the story for right wingers is that all statues of slave owners, slave traders and racists should be left in place because of this.
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Or maybe actually do a google search before locking in a target, and maybe even plan for a minimally rational degree of safety so no one ends up getting their skull crushed.
 
wareyin said:
Indeed. They left the Confederate statues up for so long against the will of the people that tensions were bound to snap. Now that people have rebelled, a very, very few (in proportion) of statues to good people have been caught up in the anti-bad people statue crusade. "Oh, no, the horrors" scream those who fought to keep up statues honoring bad people as they dive for the fainting couch, "now look what you've done!"
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Which Confederate statues in San Francisco and Madison, Wisconsin are you talking about?
 
Is peoples outrage at "Racial Injustice" exceptional enough to justify removing certain statues or busts while retaining those depicting individuals who otherwise come off just as bad, if not worse, as long as they are not otherwise associated with "Racial Injustice"?
 
In the experience of, say, minorities and the working class, has actual progress been measuring up to the celebration?
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No, it has not. Which is why all monuments to the civil rights movement should be destroyed immediately.
 
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trustbutverify said:
Or maybe actually do a google search before locking in a target, and maybe even plan for a minimally rational degree of safety so no one ends up getting their skull crushed.
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Sure, but what does people doing something stupid to one statue have to do specifically with another, or statues that have justification for being brought down?

The only conclusion I can reach is "sometimes the mob does stupid stuff."
 
Garb said:
Sure, but what does people doing something stupid to one statue have to do specifically with another, or statues that have justification for being brought down?

The only conclusion I can reach is "sometimes the mob does stupid stuff."
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I think it's worth trying to minimize the "sometimes". Especially when it's so ridiculously easy to do so.
 
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