Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

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I don't suppose there would be any point in pointing out that there is a big difference between an allegedly 'effeminate' boy and a trans girl.

But I will point out that anyone who accepts the idea that a boy can be 'effeminate' has already accepted that gender is social and not purely biological.
 
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There are a number of different debates happening all at once around this issue. I'm honestly interested in looking into some parts of it more deeply because someone I know fairly well has recently come out as trans. I hope it's okay to say that it surprised me. I had not picked up on her dissatisfaction in any way. It makes me feel like a bit of a jerk.

A friend of mine (female) did the same thing recently.

I've only talked via Zoom since this happened, and not one on one, always in groups, since she made this announcement, so I don't have much insight into what's going on with their life. (She has requested the use of "they/them". I don't know if she is actually declaring herself to be transgender, or non-gender. Linguistically, "they/them" is just incredibly awkward.)

I don't feel like a jerk at all. I thought of her as a woman. I still think of her as a woman. I'll do my best to go along with her new declaration of identity. It's not likely that I'll ever have to behave any differently around her, anyway. It's not like I was trying to start some romance with her.

However, there are still issues. If she tries to shower with the men, I'll think she is a fool.
 
What sticks out in this mass of posts is a few basic stances.

The one part says we must simply accept, its all good.
Another part says they try to be understanding and not say the obvious to mostly protect feelings, I guess. But they know what isn't.

The last simply agrees with the thread title.

Nobody yet has conceded to any other POV. Not a suprise.
 
I would have thought that the "trans women aren't women" crowd ought, in order to be consistent, also to be agreeing with the statement "there is no such thing as an effeminate boy or an effeminate man"

Shouldn't any way in which a male person behaves be, by definition, masculine?
 
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I would have thought that the "trans women aren't women" crowd ought, in order to be consistent, also to be agreeing with the statement "there is no such thing as an effeminate boy or an effeminate man"

Shouldn't any way in which a male person behaves be, by definition, masculine?

I agree with that. It is a meaningless distinction.
 
Shouldn't any way in which a male person behaves be, by definition, masculine?
If that were the case, there would be almost no distinction between masculinity and femininity. Which would be just fine by the gender criticalWP folks.

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I would have thought that the "trans women aren't women" crowd ought, in order to be consistent, also to be agreeing with the statement "there is no such thing as an effeminate boy or an effeminate man"

Shouldn't any way in which a male person behaves be, by definition, masculine?
Why?

It is a totally different thing.

There are camp dudes and butch chick's.

They are still dudes and chicks
 
What is anyone hoping to accomplish with their proposed position?

For example, does anyone think their policy is the most utilitarian?
 
I would have thought that the "trans women aren't women" crowd ought, in order to be consistent, also to be agreeing with the statement "there is no such thing as an effeminate boy or an effeminate man"

Shouldn't any way in which a male person behaves be, by definition, masculine?

That's what you get for thinking on behalf of other people.


But seriously...

I can only speak for myself, not for the entire crowd, but I would say that while I would disagree with your statement, I think it's close to something I would agree with.

I would say that no behavior is definitively male or definitively female. So, instead of saying that any way a male person behaves is masculine, I would say that there is no truly "masculine" behavior, regardless of how many men nor how few women engage in that behavior.

On the other hand, there are behaviors and mannerisms that are correlated with maleness. They are not definitive of maleness, but males typically engage in those behaviors and females typically do not. When I was in biology class, these were called "tertiary sex characteristics". I suspect that term is considered archaic today.

With regard to the "effeminate" label, then, I would say that as a means of classification, it is not very useful. There is no test that one can do to say that a person is effeminate or is not effeminate. Nevertheless, we can recognize the word, and the associated mannerisms. It means something to us, despite its occasional lack of clarity.

Similarly, although I said that there is no "truly masculine" behavior, the word "masculine" is still useful for describing the typical case. If I say, "He is very masculine." people still have an idea what I mean. There are behaviors and attributes very strongly correlated with sex, and we have descriptors for those behaviors.

However, no one in my "crowd" would say, "Hmmm....your behaviors are stereotypically female. You should use the women's locker room."
 
Why?

It is a totally different thing.

There are camp dudes and butch chick's.

They are still dudes and chicks

Notice how you change my words to avoid the conclusion.

Are there unmasculine dudes?

Are there unfeminine chicks?
 
What is anyone hoping to accomplish with their proposed position?
On which specific issue? I doubt that the optimal solution for changing rooms will be the same as the solution for, say, employment discrimination.

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Notice how you change my words to avoid the conclusion.



Are there unmasculine dudes?



Are there unfeminine chicks?
Yes there are.

Which is what I meant by camp and butch

I don't get your argument sorry.

What does this have to do with trans people?
 
A lot of gay dudes are unmasculine and a lot of gay chicks are unfeminine.

Most aren't trans.

Again. I am just confused how this is relevant to the thread
 
Yes there are.

Which is what I meant by camp and butch

I don't get your argument sorry.

What does this have to do with trans people?
So you think that gender is is, at least partly, a social construct, right?

If gender was entirely determined by biological sex then every biological male would, by definition, be masculine and every biological female would, by definition, be feminine.
 
A lot of gay dudes are unmasculine and a lot of gay chicks are unfeminine.
That is your opinion. I think that all gay dudes are masculine and all gay chicks are feminine, whether they are camp, butch or otherwise.

Simple because all dudes are, by definition, masculine and all chicks are, by definition, feminine.
 
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So you think that gender is is, at least partly, a social construct, right?

If gender was entirely determined by biological sex then every biological male would, by definition, be masculine and every biological female would, by definition, be feminine.
No not really.

Acting feminine or masculine in a way that people have been taught to perceive as fitting males and females is social.

Gender is internal and totally separate

There are plenty of butch gay dudes and feminine gay chicks
 
No not really.

Acting feminine or masculine in a way that people have been taught to perceive as fitting males and females is social.

Gender is internal and totally separate
So you are saying that "masculne" and "feminine" are words that do not relate to gender???

I don't get what you mean by these words.
 
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There are plenty of butch gay dudes
I can't think of any dude, gay or straight, that I have met who has been butch, nor any woman who was camp. I guess there could be some, but I don't see the relevance of these words "butch" and "camp" to a discussion on gender. Maybe you could explain.
and feminine gay chicks
.
I can't see how any chick can be anything except feminine

But then I use "feminine" to refer to gender, whereas you appear to be using it in some odd sense that does not relate to gender. Maybe you could explain that too.
 
So you are saying that "masculne" and "feminine" are words that do not relate to gender???

I don't get what you mean by these words.
Depends how deep you look into it.

It must be fairly built in to what we perceive as feminine and masculine traits or biologically we wouldn't find it attractive.

So probably biological and a pinch of social.

Obviously it is an ancient thing.

I didn't bring up the terms and it has nothing to do with trans people so not sure what you are asking
 
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