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Split Thread Tearing Down Statues Associated With Racial Injustice

Gilbert Syndrome said:
Which was what I was saying. They're never going to risk losing their established position in the market by changing their name, and from what I can tell, the name is where the racial connotations stem from, as the image of a black man, in and of itself, is not a problem. Simply removing the black man isn't doing much in the way of improving that supposedly racial problem, as far as I can tell.
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No it is the combination that causes the problem along with the origin of the original marketing decisions.

I see this as no different to a company coming up with a new marketing idea of a product today. Today they wouldn't choose to use the stereotype of a happy black domestic servant, so it only makes sense to change something which was based on what is now considered a terrible stereotype.
 
William Parcher said:
https://www.businessinsider.com/15-racist-brand-mascots-and-logos-2014-6
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So again that write-up outlines the idea that the racial connotations do indeed stem from the use of the word "uncle", which is just baffling to me, because all they're removing, apparently, is the image of the black man, which in and of itself is not racist.

It'd be like removing the image of a random white guy from a bottle of Klansman Ketchup and saying there, it's okay now, the image has gone.
 
Darat said:
No it is the combination that causes the problem along with the origin of the original marketing decisions.

I see this as no different to a company coming up with a new marketing idea of a product today. Today they wouldn't choose to use the stereotype of a happy black domestic servant, so it only makes sense to change something which was based on what is now considered a terrible stereotype.
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True, but taking that image away doesn't immediately make the brand name open to interpretation. It's not like they're now opening the door for people to assume Uncle Ben is a white man, an Asian man, or anything in between. Without the black man, who on earth is Uncle Ben? The history of the name and the mascot born out of it isn't going anywhere.
 
*Sighs* Fine. Uncle Ben stays because there's no way to get rid of it that meets your standards.

WHAT POINT ARE YOU MAKING IN ALL THIS?

This is beyond "Just talking" this is just rambling.
 
Darat said:
Did you not read their statement? The meat was

".... As we listen to the voices of consumers, especially in the Black community, and to the voices of our Associates worldwide, we recognize that now is the right time to evolve the Uncle Ben's brand, including its visual brand identity, which we will do....."
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Yeah, I caught that, I've only just checked the link out. That's fair enough.
 
JoeMorgue said:
*Sighs* Fine. Uncle Ben stays because there's no way to get rid of it that meets your standards.

WHAT POINT ARE YOU MAKING IN ALL THIS?

This is beyond "Just talking" this is just rambling.
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What point are you making, Joe?

Answers on a postcard...

:rolleyes:

Nobody is asking for Uncle bloody Ben's image to stay, are they? It's called discussion, Joe. You should try it someday.
 
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jimbob said:
We know he was an invented character.

Who happened to fit with the stereotypes of a black servant who was too old to be called "boy".
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Back in them days, there was no such thing as a black man who was too old to be called "boy". "Boy" was a pretty common epithet.

Now, if I go to the literature of that day, I can find lots of cases of black men being called "boy" regardless of their age. If I go to the civil rights era, I can find lots of cases where a black man says, "Don't call me boy!" I've seen several movies that featured that line.



I've never seen one where someone says, "Don't call me uncle!"

It's made up. It's fictitious. It didn't happen. If you have to have "the true story" behind something explained, and it has to be explained to everyone, maybe it just isn't the true story.

So, I'm going to go to google, and see if I can find out about black men being called "uncle", but I will bet it will be easy to find examples of people explaining why the term is offensive, and few if any examples of people actually using the term in the manner that is claimed. I just don't think it's real.
 
JoeMorgue said:
That getting rid of racist imagery on a common piece of packing is a good thing and we shouldn't be looking for reasons to have a problem with it.
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I know you have a penchant for instantly labeling people who don't always agree with every single white outrage as being racist, but I'm probably one of the most fair people you're likely to meet when it comes to accepting people, Joe.

I agree with you, yet my reservations are with the idea of Uncle Ben being racist to begin with. People seem to be putting forth the idea that he's black, and he's being called "uncle" which is derogatory, and that by getting rid of the image of the black man, this somehow makes the brand's history and name less racist. I'm having trouble with that part, basically.
 
Gilbert Syndrome said:
So again that write-up outlines the idea that the racial connotations do indeed stem from the use of the word "uncle", which is just baffling to me, because all they're removing, apparently, is the image of the black man, which in and of itself is not racist.

It'd be like removing the image of a random white guy from a bottle of Klansman Ketchup and saying there, it's okay now, the image has gone.
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Here's the part that I see repeated over and over in various ways
:
Uncle Ben has a "contentious history," Stuart Elliott wrote in a 2007 New York Times piece recently cited by Delish. "White Southerners once used 'uncle' and 'aunt' as honorifics for older blacks because they refused to say 'Mr.' and 'Mrs.,'" he said.
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But is it true?

I can find loads of references that say the "rule of thumb" is about wife beating, and "Ring around the rosy" is about the plague. These things aren't true, but I can find references to them all over the internet.

I can find references to old men as "uncle" and old women as "aunt", but the cases I know aren't race specific.

If I could find one quote from a contemporary novel or short story, or news article, or any source at all where a black man was called "uncle" in place of "Mr.", then I'd think it was possible. As it is, I think it is a completely made up story.
 
Gilbert Syndrome said:
True, but taking that image away doesn't immediately make the brand name open to interpretation. It's not like they're now opening the door for people to assume Uncle Ben is a white man, an Asian man, or anything in between. Without the black man, who on earth is Uncle Ben? The history of the name and the mascot born out of it isn't going anywhere.
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Who was Mr Kipling?
 
Meadmaker said:
Here's the part that I see repeated over and over in various ways


But is it true?

I can find loads of references that say the "rule of thumb" is about wife beating, and "Ring around the rosy" is about the plague. These things aren't true, but I can find references to them all over the internet.

I can find references to old men as "uncle" and old women as "aunt", but the cases I know aren't race specific.

If I could find one quote from a contemporary novel or short story, or news article, or any source at all where a black man was called "uncle" in place of "Mr.", then I'd think it was possible. As it is, I think it is a completely made up story.
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I agree, I'm having trouble getting to the truth of the matter as far as the use of "uncle" being derogatory goes. I also just can't see how ridding the entirely innocent image of a black man goes any way towards removing those supposedly racial connotations that apparently rest within the brand and its history, as opposed to the man on the label.
 
I Am The Scum said:
Some people actually are. Tiny disruptions to the status quo trigger right-wingers like you would not believe.
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Oh, I would believe it. You can't miss it. I see the same with left-wingers too.

Right now cultural revolution is the status quo. America is changing by the minute and you have to look at the news constantly to see all the new changes which are the new status quo.

Tiny disruptions to the new status quo (which is cultural revolution) trigger left-wingers like you would not believe.
 
Darat said:
Who was Mr Kipling?
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As far as I can tell, Mr. Kipling wasn't there to begin with, whereas Uncle Ben was.

It's not that I'm asking how you can have a faceless mascot for a food brand, I'm asking how removing the black man from the label changes anything, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't change a thing.

Junior: Mum, who's Uncle Ben?

Mum: Well, son, he's not necessarily anyone in particular.

Junior: Why's it called Uncle Ben's, then?

Mum: Well, son, it was originally a nice black gentleman, but they got rid of him.

Junior: But why?

Mum: Oh, well, they said that him being regarded as "Uncle" Ben was potentialy insensitive,

Junior: How come?

Mum: *sigh* Well it is claimed that the use of "uncle" was seen to be derogatory.

Junior: So why didn't they change the name?

Mum: Too much moolah to be lost, son.

Junior: So, Uncle Ben isn't black anymore or what?

Mum: No idea, son, here, have an Uncle Joe's Mintball...

Junior: Who's Uncle Joe?
 
Am I the only one here who grew up regularly referring to good friends of my father, including his boss, as "Uncle"? My son* has called my two closest friends, "Uncle Steve" and "Uncle Wayne" for as long as he could call them by name. I always regarded it as a title of love and respect. How could I have been so wrong?


*For anyone not aware, both my boys are on the autism spectrum, and my youngest is nearly nonverbal so he doesn't refer to anyone by name, but does know people by name, so if I say, "We're going to "Uncle" Wayne's house, he knows exactly where we're going.
 
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Mike! said:
Am I the only one here who grew up regularly referring to good friends of my father, including his boss, as "Uncle"? My son* has called my two closes friends, "Uncle Steve" and "Uncle Wayne" for as long as he could call them by name.


*For anyone not aware, both my boys are on the autism spectrum, and my youngest is nearly nonverbal so he doesn't refer to anyone by name, but does know people by name, so if I say, "We're going to "Uncle" Wayne's house, he knows exactly where we're going.
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Well, I am an uncle, to five children.

As I mentioned earlier, "auntie and uncle" are both used frequently in Singapore, many older people there insist that my brother and everyone else use it to refer to them, for some reason, I don't know why. It often leads to funny moments such as when the lady goes into my brother's apartment to tidy up and he's still there, potentially in his birthday suit, and has to shout something like hang on, auntie/uncle, I'm not dressed!
 
I hope we can get a 1,000 post thread where we all demand answers as to why polar bears are used in Coca-Cola marketing.
 
Myriad said:
"I demand you stop punching me."

"We need to discuss, who else would you expect me to stop punching?"
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That's literally 90% of the "Whhhaaatttt? I'm just talking!" discourse.

Hey here's a radical idea. We can still discuss things after we fix them. No laws says we can't.

We can get rid of the racist traitor statues and the Pancake box "Mammy" images and all you delightful people can still talk about it "What... where on a message board that's the point... we're just talking is all" people can still just be talking.

But no.... we have to talk "first" for some reason.
 
Gilbert Syndrome said:
I agree, I'm having trouble getting to the truth of the matter as far as the use of "uncle" being derogatory goes. I also just can't see how ridding the entirely innocent image of a black man goes any way towards removing those supposedly racial connotations that apparently rest within the brand and its history, as opposed to the man on the label.
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You are aware of the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" I assume? And you know that from that Uncle Tom did become a derogatory term. Now you may not like it, and you may be able to show usage of "uncle" which is using it as the normal family relationship descriptor. However calling anyone from the black community an "Uncle" whatever is clearly meant by many if not most who chose to use the term as derogatory and belittling.
 
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