Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Emily's Cat]

Sure, you can straw man me and then say that you disagree with the straw man version of my opinion that you've invented, but it's not really conducive to productive or honest conversation is it?

Still, at least this time you're not saying that I don't care about women being raped, I suppose. I guess we could call that progress of a kind.

What part of it is a straw man? If I have incorrectly interpreted your position, please correct me.

As for the rest of it, I don't think you don't care about women being raped. I do, however, think that you care less about cis-women being raped in prison than about transwomen being raped in prison.

 

[Emily's Cat]

A 4.4% rate by a government administered facility is a problem, too. Imagine if 4.4% of cis men were sexually assaulted when going to the DMV.

I agree very strongly. The treatment of prisoners is horrific in many respects and the degree to which rape seems to simply be overlooked and allowed to happen is one of them.

Yes, that would be shocking!

Imagine if nearly 20% of women in the US are sexually assaulted or raped in their lives? That would be pretty shocking too, wouldn't it?

 

[Rolfe]

What high bar are you including to count as "sexual assault" that only 20% of women have experienced something that clears it? I've yet to meet anyone at all who hasn't been inappropriately touched in a sexual manner without consent.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What high bar are you including to count as "sexual assault" that only 20% of women have experienced something that clears it? I've yet to meet anyone at all who hasn't been inappropriately touched in a sexual manner without consent.

Whatever CDC used in their survey. I don't know what it is. But yeah, every woman I know has been subjected to inappropriate contact at some point, from a butt or boob grab in public on up the chain.

 

[Rolfe]

And yet the trans activists class misgendering and being looked at funny as "literal violence" and still they're only claiming 60% of transwomen have been subjected to this.

I've had a couple of things happen to me that should probably have been reported to the police, but at the time I just shrugged them off, as you do. When you really drill down into it I don't think you'll find a woman older than mid-teens who hasn't been groped. And many younger of course. Plus flashers. (That never happened to me.)

 

[Emily's Cat]

And yet the trans activists class misgendering and being looked at funny as "literal violence" and still they're only claiming 60% of transwomen have been subjected to this.

I've had a couple of things happen to me that should probably have been reported to the police, but at the time I just shrugged them off, as you do. When you really drill down into it I don't think you'll find a woman older than mid-teens who hasn't been groped. And many younger of course. Plus flashers. (That never happened to me.)

I did have an attempted date rape in college, that I fought back against and reported to the school. But I was the first person to have reported that guy, so nothing came of it, it was "my word against his". Several other women I talked to had similar encounters with him... but none were willing to report it. They were worried about it getting out, and them being harassed for speaking up.

Which, if anyone at all has been paying attention over the past few years, is an incredibly common take on it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But, as you point out... misgendering someone is a huge deal. It clearly merits far more social awareness and activism than sexual assaults against women and the judgement we face for daring to speak out about it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

When I was younger, I didn't think of myself as a feminist. I actually viewed "feminist" as a bad thing, as a bad term, based on all of the narrative about man-hating women that I got when I was a child. I didn't want to be associated with that.

But as I've got older... I've become so much more of a feminist than I ever thought I was. I've had that direct experience, and I've seen so many other women face it. I've been on the short end of gender bias in the workplace, I've gotten the performance review that includes "Listen more and talk less" and "Don't be so strident in your opinions, make sure other people feel included" and "Learn when to let go". All of them are variations on "Women should be seen and not heard, you should know your place".

Part of that bias is based on the social expectation that women should be supportive and collaborative, and should place the needs of others ahead of their own. Women are supposed to be caregivers, nurturers, and motherly. The wants and needs of women are persistently viewed as secondary to the needs and wants of others.

The disadvantages that women face aren't as important as the disadvantages that minorities face. They're not as high a priority as the disadvantages of LGBTQ people. They're not as big a deal as the disadvantages that disabled people deal with. Every other category of people has a need that must be dealt with first.

The view is so pervasive throughout most societies, that I'm at a loss on how to address it.

 

[Belz...]

But, as you point out... misgendering someone is a huge deal.

Is it really?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Is it really?

Well I've certainly been told it is.

I've been told in no uncertain terms that if I "misgender" someone I want them to kill themselves.

Whether it "is" on some objective level is, obviously, the whole point of the discussion, but some people certainly think it is.

 

[zooterkin]

Is it really?

You may have missed the sarcasm in that post. However, for some people it does appear to be.

Oh, incidentally, I've stated it in other threads on this subject, and I'll state it again here - if you misgender, I will simply not engage with you at all.

 

[Giordano]

Would you be willing to share a cell with a psychotic serial killer because, even though he has a high "per capita" risk of killing you, that shouldn't matter in practice as there just happen to be so few serial killers in prison?

1. Frankly it is a little annoying that you snipped the two thirds of my post that clearly explain that I was stating just the opposite. Not that it didn’t matter that trans-women appear to have a greater tendency per capita to sexually abuse other women prisoners than do cis women, but that because there were so few trans-women in prison in absolute terms it should be easier to find practical solutions to prevent these molestations. Practical solutions such as appropriate housing and rules, etc. Just as there are approaches by which prisons try to deal with gay prisoners. Just as there are approaches by which prisons try to deal with very vulnerable prisoners. Just as there are approaches by which prisons try to deal with violent prisoners.

2. But you bring up a point that is actually in favor of my argument, that per capita is not that important in practice. It is the reciprocal of my original point. Given there are so few trans-women in prison, in absolute terms there are many more women being molested by cis-women than by trans-women cell mates. The magnitude of the problem is much greater involving cis-women rapists than trans-women rapists. More women are abused by cis-women than by trans-women in the prison system overall. So solving that problem should be the first priority, right?

Of course preventing all kinds of sexual molestation in prisons should be a first priority.

 

[The Atheist]

But, as you point out... misgendering someone is a huge deal. It clearly merits far more social awareness and activism than sexual assaults against women and the judgement we face for daring to speak out about it.

Well said, and you've given me the answer!

Since mis-gendering is ruled on by the trans community, all we need is for women to stand up and say that calling them cis-women is clearly mis-gendering, because they're women, not some idiotically-prefixed woman.

Except, it would fail because "women" don't exist any more, and even if they did, their opinion doesn't matter after centuries of female privilege.

 

[Giordano]

This is data from the US, not the UK, it's comparing apples and oranges.

Do you have any reason to think that it would be different in the UK? Or that this thread applies only to the UK?

I’m not certain what you mean about comparing apples to oranges. Is your objection to comparing the rates of sexual assaults on trans-women vs cis-men? If so, is not that comparison highly relevant when discussing where to place trans women in the prison population?

 

[d4m10n]

But, as you point out... misgendering someone is a huge deal.

Is it really?

For some people misgendering is no doubt very hurtful, but the hurt itself is difficult for someone like me to understand. If you all decided to call me by female pronouns going forward, I would find that mildly confusing at worst. Heck, feel free to use any pronouns you like! I'm a man—for almost all common values of the term—but I don't think there is anything weird or bad about being (seen as) a woman. Then again, I haven't put hardly any effort into becoming or being seen as a man, so it's fairly easy for me to be apathetic about manhood as a badge of honor.

 

[Marcus]

But, as you point out... misgendering someone is a huge deal. It clearly merits far more social awareness and activism than sexual assaults against women and the judgement we face for daring to speak out about it.

Well, you know, men are just so much more important, even if they are trans

 

[Rolfe]

Well said, and you've given me the answer!

Since mis-gendering is ruled on by the trans community, all we need is for women to stand up and say that calling them cis-women is clearly mis-gendering, because they're women, not some idiotically-prefixed woman.

Except, it would fail because "women" don't exist any more, and even if they did, their opinion doesn't matter after centuries of female privilege.

Oh, we try that all the time, including on this thread. Several women have tried to explain that the term cis is as offensive to them as misgendering is to a trans person. We've been lectured to and patronised and told that it's a simple descriptor so suck it up snowflake.

 

[caveman1917]

1. Frankly it is a little annoying that you snipped the two thirds of my post that clearly explain that I was stating just the opposite. Not that it didn’t matter that trans-women appear to have a greater tendency per capita to sexually abuse other women prisoners than do cis women, but that because there were so few trans-women in prison in absolute terms it should be easier to find practical solutions to prevent these molestations. Practical solutions such as appropriate housing and rules, etc. Just as there are approaches by which prisons try to deal with gay prisoners. Just as there are approaches by which prisons try to deal with very vulnerable prisoners. Just as there are approaches by which prisons try to deal with violent prisoners.

Yes, that's being done in the UK apparently through a third separate wing.

2. But you bring up a point that is actually in favor of my argument, that per capita is not that important in practice. It is the reciprocal of my original point. Given there are so few trans-women in prison, in absolute terms there are many more women being molested by cis-women than by trans-women cell mates. The magnitude of the problem is much greater involving cis-women rapists than trans-women rapists. More women are abused by cis-women than by trans-women in the prison system overall. So solving that problem should be the first priority, right?

Not necessarily. Do you have such a solution? Because if not, how does that position not equate to "We're going to keep putting male sex offenders in female prisons until we can come up with a perfect solution for all sexual assaults in prison"? It might not be the perfect solution to all sexual assault in prison, but that doesn't mean that stopping to put male sex offenders in female prisons isn't a good idea. And between a good idea and no idea, the former has first priority, right?

 

[caveman1917]

Do you have any reason to think that it would be different in the UK? Or that this thread applies only to the UK?

I'm expecting US prisons to be more dangerous in general than UK prisons, yes. So for all such data (not just sexual assaults, but generic assaults, etc) to be inflated across the board.

I’m not certain what you mean about comparing apples to oranges. Is your objection to comparing the rates of sexual assaults on trans-women vs cis-men? If so, is not that comparison highly relevant when discussing where to place trans women in the prison population?

I was referring to the conclusion drawn by Roboramma from that data, making a comparison between the percentage of trans-women sexually assaulted in male US prisons vs the percentage of trans-women sexually assaulting someone in female UK prisons. That comparison assumes the same base rate of sexual assaults in US and UK prisons, and see previous paragraph for that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is it really?

You may have missed the sarcasm in that post. However, for some people it does appear to be.

I apologize for not including my [/s] tag

It was tongue in cheek though. I try very hard to use whatever gender any given person prefers, but at the end of the day I just don't think it's a massive deal if I get it wrong or forget on occasion.

In this thread, though, I don't think anyone has purposefully misgendered anyone, so it seems rather moot.