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JFK Conspiracy Theories VII: Late November back in '63...

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Yup, 2 for 3. The last two shots were the easiest as the car cleared the trees.

Didn't the first shot actually hit the branch of a tree, fragment, and a fragment bounced off the curb where James Teague was standing (on Commerce Street IIRC) and hit him in the cheek? I remember reading something about this regarding Teague's injury but I can't remember where.

Regardless, fully agreed. And a bullet from that high-powered Carcano, with a clear line of sight and not too far shot, hitting a slow-moving human target in the head...Game Over.
 
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and he is no longer anonymous... he left a paper trail. One would think that anonymity would be critical if you were an Assassin.

No, you're seriously misinformed. You're thinking like a CT, looking for any reason to discard the argument advanced.

He didn't buy the weapon to shoot JFK. He bought it to shoot General Walker.

He had seriously scoped out Walker's home and the environs (photographs were discovered of Walker's home, taken in March of 1963, among Oswald's possessions after the assassination).

And his plan wasn't to abandon the weapon at the scene of the crime after shooting Walker, his plan was to flee with the weapon. All the police had after the Walker shooting was one mangled bullet that missed Walker's head by inches. Oswald took his weapon with him in the dark of night when he fled the scene. The police had no rifle to try to link the bullet to, nor any rifle to trace back to the owner. Oswald wasn't a suspect in the Walker shooting until after the assassination.

And he had no plans to shoot JFK when he took the job at the Depository. Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald, Linnie Mae Randle, and at least one other woman were sitting around talking and Marina was asked if Lee found a job yet (Marina was like 8 months pregnant at the time). Linnie Mae Randle mentioned her younger brother, Wes Frazier, had recently gotten a job at the depository, and maybe Lee could try there.

Ruth Paine took it a step further, "let's call and see if they're still hiring". She spoke to Roy Truly, and described the circumstances, young man with a wife and child, another on the way, and an ex-Marine.

Roy Truly, a WW-II veteran, said send him down and I'll see what I can do. Oswald of course didn't mention his defection to Russia or his pro-communist leanings, said he was just out of the Marines, and got the job.

But it was only happenstance many times over that Lee got the opportunity to shoot the President from his place of work.

The first was the coffee-klatch of the women meeting and the subject of Lee's looking for a job coming up. If Linnie Mae Randle isn't there, or if her brother didn't get a job there, or Marina isn't there, Oswald could be working elsewhere during the President's visit to Dallas.

The second happenstance was Roy Truly hiring two men in early October, and assigning Oswald to the warehouse on Elm Street, and assigning the other man to the other warehouse many blocks from Elm. If Truly assigned Oswald to the other warehouse, he's again working elsewhere during the President's visit to Dallas.

The third happenstance thing was separate from the other two, and revolved around the Secret Service decision to have the Presidential luncheon at the Trade Mart, along with the political decision to have a motorcade through Dallas. When those decisions was made, it pretty much determined the motorcade would go right past Oswald's place of work at the Depository on Elm. But if the Secret Service determines another site is more suited to the Presidential luncheon, then the motorcade has a different route, and Oswald, although working at the Depository on Elm, is again working elsewhere during the President's visit to Dallas.

It's all happenstance that Oswald was even in a position to contemplate shooting the President.

Now, Oswald learns about that motorcade sometime between Sunday, 11/17/63 and Thursday, 11/21/63. He's got some thinking to do. Does he want to attempt this? Fate has delivered JFK onto him.

Ultimately, he decides to try to get back together with his wife and try to make a go of it that way. He goes to the Paine home where Marina had been living separated from him on a surprise visit on Thursday night and says he's a changed man. He wants to be a better husband and promises things will be different this time if Marina comes back to him. He even promises to buy her a washing machine so Marina doesn't have to wash their infant's diapers by hand.

Happenstance. Marina of course said yes, and Oswald abandoned his plans to shoot the President. JFK served out his second term and died quietly at home surrounded by his loved ones in May of 1994, just short of his 76th birthday. Oswald turned his life around, learned to drive, got a better job and eventually opened his own photography studio taking portrait and wedding photography as a career. He retired in 2004 and passed away in 2017, just another common man.

No, we both know that's not the way it went.

Marina wanted to say yes, but wanted to keep her husband dangling a bit, so she said to the offer of the washing machine, "No thanks, buy something nice for yourself."

That was pretty much the end of the conversation.

The next morning Oswald took his weapon to the Depository and shot and killed the President of the United States from his place of work.

Now, he knew when he brought the rifle to the Depository that Friday morning he wouldn't be able to flee with it, so he knew he would have to leave it behind and have it be traced to him.

If you confuse yourself and think he bought the rifle with the plan to shoot the President from the sixth floor of a building he didn't have a job in yet, during a motorcade that wasn't planned yet, yet, after trying to patch things up with a wife he wasn't yet separated from, you might think you have an argument.

But you sure as hell don't.

Hank
 
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Didn't the first shot actually hit the branch of a tree, fragment, and a fragment bounced off the curb where James Teague [Tague] was standing (on Commerce Street IIRC) and hit him in the cheek? I remember reading something about this regarding Teague's injury but I can't remember where.

Regardless, fully agreed. And a bullet from that high-powered Carcano, with a clear line of sight and not too far shot, hitting a slow-moving human target in the head...Game Over.

Nobody knows which shot hit Tague. Tague himself was unclear if it was the second or third. Tague himself thought it was between the second and third that he was struck, or at the time of the second. His testimony is unclear on that point.

But if we credit Tague's recollection, we can eliminate the first shot, as the bullet traveled faster than sound, so the bullet (or bullet fragment) would have hit Tague before he heard the sound of the shot that struck him.

I favor the third shot, as a fragment of the head shot would not have to deflect much to hit Tague (the limo was almost directly between Oswald in the Sniper's nest window and where Tague was standing at the time of the head shot).

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tague.htm

Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy sheriff looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek." That is when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir.​

Hank
 
Every aspect of the assassination is subject to the same insane level of scrutiny. I remember a conspiracy theorist insisting the weight of Oswald's rifle was not correctly noted in its original shipping information, which (of course) invalidated the entire evidence trail for that rifle. That sent me digging through scans of old Italian shipping manifests trying to find what the weight of the crate of surplus Carcano rifles was when they were shipped to Klein's in Chicago. It's possible to drown in minutia surrounding this case.

Yeah, someone here even brought that up. It sent me researching it as well. It turns out they were comparing the weight of Oswald's weapon after a scope was mounted and a sling was attached to the weight of the rifle without a scope or sling. Their inability to follow a logical thought to its conclusion has misled many in this case.

Edit: Found it! The poster was no other than "No Other" back in May of 2017:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11847959&postcount=3909

Despite all his arguments being shot down, he still hasn't changed his opinion any. Funny how faith works.


To anyone claiming there is some issue with Oswald ordering/buying a money order for/receiving/picking up the Carcano rifle, my response is always simple. He ordered his pistol in the exact same way...same method of order and payment, same alias used, same PO box shipped to, and he clearly had no issue with receiving it since he was arrested with it in his possession.

I had one CT argue the police planted the revolver on Oswald in the theatre!

Seriously.

Hank
 
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Didn't the first shot actually hit the branch of a tree, fragment, and a fragment bounced off the curb where James Teague was standing (on Commerce Street IIRC) and hit him in the cheek? I remember reading something about this regarding Teague's injury but I can't remember where.

Regardless, fully agreed. And a bullet from that high-powered Carcano, with a clear line of sight and not too far shot, hitting a slow-moving human target in the head...Game Over.

Possible, but has never been determined for certain. Teague was hit in the cheek by a fragment, but a fragment of what? Bullet? Shrapnel from concrete? I don't believe it is remotely possible to be definitive about that. Personally, I think he was hit by fragments created by the first (missed) shot, but meh. It's not like I am married to that notion. It is just another CT dead end.
 
Nobody knows which shot hit Tague. Tague himself was unclear if it was the second or third. Tague himself thought it was between the second and third that he was struck, or at the time of the second. His testimony is unclear on that point.

But if we credit Tague's recollection, we can eliminate the first shot, as the bullet traveled faster than sound, so the bullet (or bullet fragment) would have hit Tague before he heard the sound of the shot that struck him.

I favor the third shot, as a fragment of the head shot would not have to deflect much to hit Tague (the limo was almost directly between Oswald in the Sniper's nest window and where Tague was standing at the time of the head shot).

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tague.htm

Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy sheriff looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek." That is when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir.​

Hank

The third shot makes sense. We know that round fragmented. We know one of those fragments fractured the windshield. Drawing a line from JFK's head, to the windshield, to Tague it's almost a done deal.

What kills me sometimes is the thought that the first bullet is still in Dealey Plaza either embedded in a tree, or in fragments long buried in the lawn of the center divide.
 
Didn't the first shot actually hit the branch of a tree, fragment, and a fragment bounced off the curb where James Teague was standing (on Commerce Street IIRC) and hit him in the cheek? I remember reading something about this regarding Teague's injury but I can't remember where.

Regardless, fully agreed. And a bullet from that high-powered Carcano, with a clear line of sight and not too far shot, hitting a slow-moving human target in the head...Game Over.

And he has plenty of time between the 2nd and third shot.

2nd shot at around frame 230. Count the seconds. Frame rate is slightly slower 18fps than Zapruder's B&H 18.3 fps.



This video from the same youtuber is an interesting comparison.



these are probably NSFW
 
I haven't argued here in months, dude. You're just being desperate at this point.

Desperate?

Desperate for a laugh, maybe.

I miss your unintentionally humorous posts. And in how after about two years of posting, you never could answer a single question put to you about your arguments.

Hank
 
He's been gathering evidence.
Just you wait, Henry Sienzant, just you wait!


We're closing in on 57 years since the assassination. One would think we'd be past that evidence-gathering stage by this time. As one person connected with the Warren Commission put it to one of the junior counsel in the summer of 1963, "It's time to be closing doors, not opening them."

I might be around for the 75 anniversary of the assassination, but I know I won't be around for the 100th. How much longer do I have to wait for them to reveal the extent of the conspiracy and name the players, and most importantly, show the evidence of a conspiracy involving those players?

But since conspiracy theorists have no overarching narrative that explains the assassination better than the conventional narrative, they are always in the 'just you wait until I get better evidence' pupae stage of the development of their argument.

Unfortunately for them, the best evidence is still the evidence gathered closest to the time of the event (especially the hard evidence), not recollections from 30+ years later, with all the routine foibles and tricks that memory can play on you after decades have transpired.

And the evidence gathered back in 1963-1964 (including the Warren Commission testimony) puts the noose firmly around Oswald's neck, no one else's.

So what did we see MicahJava (and of course, all conspiracy theorists) data mining for his arguments? Recollections provided to the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) in the early 1990's, about 30 years after the event. What did we see him ignore? The hard evidence and statements gathered on the day of the assassination and over the first few days, and the sworn testimony given during the Warren Commission's tenure as an active investigation.

Hank
 
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We're closing in on 57 years since the assassination. One would think we'd be past that evidence-gathering stage by this time. As one person connected with the Warren Commission put it to one of the junior counsel in the summer of 1963, "It's time to be closing doors, not opening them."

Uh, that should be the summer of 1964.
 
My goal is to read a JFK assassination-related article where they just state Oswald shot Kennedy without mentioning the CT nonsense.

My favorite gun magazine, RECOIL had an article on Oswald's Carcano, a fluff piece giving the history of the rifle, and pointing out that it's a good old gun that has a 1,200 yard range. The article discusses in detail how Oswald purchased the rifle, and the substitution made, but then the author chickened out with the usual, "I don't want to go out on a limb and say Oswald did or didn't do it" BS. This is the kind of intellectually lazy crap which has allowed CT's to drag on for fifty-six years.
 
My goal is to read a JFK assassination-related article where they just state Oswald shot Kennedy without mentioning the CT nonsense.

My favorite gun magazine, RECOIL had an article on Oswald's Carcano, a fluff piece giving the history of the rifle, and pointing out that it's a good old gun that has a 1,200 yard range. The article discusses in detail how Oswald purchased the rifle, and the substitution made, but then the author chickened out with the usual, "I don't want to go out on a limb and say Oswald did or didn't do it" BS. This is the kind of intellectually lazy crap which has allowed CT's to drag on for fifty-six years.

If only Marguerite* Oswald and Mark Lane weren't so media hungry, or Jack Ruby hadn't been so impulsive, or the Dallas PD hadn't been incompetent, etc.

*Then again, Lee Harvey Oswald wanted fame, fortune, Marina's unconditional and submissive love, the adoration from the Communists, his very name to go down in history, dammit. I guess he had to have gotten these tendencies from somewhere...crazy mother, eh? :boggled:


---

Sometimes I suspect that it's a fringe view to say that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone when the subject of the JFK assassination comes up. Inevitably, someone always has the "but what about Jack Ruby" rejoinder. So I just respond with "What about him?"

It's not like Ruby killing Oswald is evidence against the lone gunman theory in and of itself - in fact, it's not evidence of anything other than that an unstable vigilante got past the local cops and killed Kennedy's assassin two days after the President's murder. Ruby's relationship to the events of 11/22/1963, other than the one he shared with everyone else (witness to history), began only when he shot Oswald on live TV. Anything else is pure speculation, at best.
 
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Sometimes I suspect that it's a fringe view to say that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone when the subject of the JFK assassination comes up. Inevitably, someone always has the "but what about Jack Ruby" rejoinder. So I just respond with "What about him?"

It's not like Ruby killing Oswald is evidence against the lone gunman theory in and of itself - in fact, it's not evidence of anything other than that an unstable vigilante got past the local cops and killed Kennedy's assassin two days after the President's murder. Ruby's relationship to the events of 11/22/1963, other than the one he shared with everyone else (witness to history), began only when he shot Oswald on live TV. Anything else is pure speculation, at best.


My father-in-law expressed that view that it had to be a conspiracy because Ruby shut Oswald up. I asked him how he felt about Lee Harvey Oswald that weekend. He said he wanted to kill that bastard. I pointed out he wasn't there in Dallas so he didn't have the chance. But Jack Ruby was, and did.

A lot of people who lived through that weekend, not just my father-in-law, wanted Oswald dead. Ruby got telegrams and letters out the wazoo congratulating him for killing Oswald.

Hank
 
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My father-in-law expressed that view that it had to be a conspiracy because Ruby shut Oswald up. I asked him how he felt about Lee Harvey Oswald that weekend. He said he wanted to kill that bastard. I pointed out he wasn't there in Dallas so he didn't have the chance. But Jack Ruby was, and did.

A lot of people who lived through that weekend, not just my father-in-law, wanted Oswald dead. Ruby got telegrams and letters out the wazoo congratulating him for killing Oswald.

Hank

I was but a teen when this event occurred. Other than being really sad that the President was killed I had no wish to kill Oswald, but that was/is me.
 
My father-in-law expressed that view that it had to be a conspiracy because Ruby shut Oswald up. I asked him how he felt about Lee Harvey Oswald that weekend. He said he wanted to kill that bastard. I pointed out he wasn't there in Dallas so he didn't have the chance. But Jack Ruby was, and did.

A lot of people who lived through that weekend, not just my father-in-law, wanted Oswald dead. Ruby got telegrams and letters out the wazoo congratulating him for killing Oswald.

Hank

Valid points for sure. However, I do think that Ruby's killing of Oswald helped fuel conspiracy theories. To me it would seem that if Ruby's action was due to a conspiracy, it would be more likely that it was a conspiracy involving Oswald, than that Oswald was a patsy. I've always felt that a conspiracy in which Oswald was the only shooter is possible. However there is really not much evidence supporting the idea, and after so much time has passed, it is extremely unlikely that any will come to light, so it's never likely to be more than something to speculate about. The evidence is very strong that Oswald was the only shooter.
 
Valid points for sure. However, I do think that Ruby's killing of Oswald helped fuel conspiracy theories. To me it would seem that if Ruby's action was due to a conspiracy, it would be more likely that it was a conspiracy involving Oswald, than that Oswald was a patsy. I've always felt that a conspiracy in which Oswald was the only shooter is possible. However there is really not much evidence supporting the idea, and after so much time has passed, it is extremely unlikely that any will come to light, so it's never likely to be more than something to speculate about. The evidence is very strong that Oswald was the only shooter.

If there was a conspiracy - which I deem highly unlikely - it had to be an extremely small one. The sheer happenstance of Oswald getting the job at the Depository in October solely because a neighbor's brother had gotten hired there, for just one example, pretty much establishes there was no one else involved.
 
If there was a conspiracy - which I deem highly unlikely - it had to be an extremely small one. The sheer happenstance of Oswald getting the job at the Depository in October solely because a neighbor's brother had gotten hired there, for just one example, pretty much establishes there was no one else involved.

Yes! The conspiracy crowd always attribute Oswald's hiring to Ruth Paine, when in actuality it was Lillie Mae Randle who was the sister of Wesley Frazier.

How do the conspiracy guys and gals explain the bullet tumbling when entering John Connally? I don't think I've ever seen the point addressed by those who discount the single bullet fact.
 
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