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Split Thread The causes and legality of the declaration of WWII

It seems to me that, in July of 1941, Roosevelt could have invited ambassador Nomura to have a discussion in the Oval Office, with Secretary of State Cordell Hull, and explained to him that the American people were gravely concerned about reports (from multiple reliable sources) of Japanese atrocities in China. If these didn't stop, and if Japan didn't stop its invasion of China, he could have said, then, to their great regrets, the United States would have to sanction Japan by restricting oil exports, in order to apply serious pressure on Japan, without, however, going so far as trying to crush its economy and its military (there was no need to humiliate Japan by withdrawing all the oil used by its military). I see no reason why ambassador Nomura, and Japanese leaders, would not have understood such a pedagogic (and gradual) approach.


This paragraph is so astonishingly wrong that I cannot decide which bit of stupid to address first.

Had the Japanese been told in no uncertain terms that the US would cut off its oil supply, Japan would have seen itself as having no choice but to try to remove the American threat in the Pacific. Pearl Harbor would have been an attack with a rubber band finger gun compared to what Japan would actually do to American interests (and lives). The best way to be attacked by a tiger is to corner it, which is exactly what you are suggesting FDR should have done.

Japan's invasion of China was not some innocent testing of the waters. Japan truly and deeply believed that it had a claim to the Chinese coast and all of Korea.They didn't occupy the ring of fire because they thought it would be neat and snazzy. They did it because they were honestly convinced of their claims to those lands. They were so convinced that they had little problem murdering a whole bunch of people (including their own young men) to secure it.

And that leads to my last and probably most important point - racism. We talk about racism when the Germans convinced themselves that all of their problems were caused by Jews. We talk about it when we say the US should never have interred its own citizens of Japanese descent. However, we don't talk nearly enough about Japanese racism.

The Japanese were absolutely and unquestionably convinced that they were the genetic, intellectual and moral superiors of all the rest of Asia. They particularly hated the Koreans.

In fact, you can still find traces of this left. Almost all anthropologists agree that Japan was the most backwards of islands before Koreans began to settle in the south. Then, archeologists can literally watch the hallmarks of civilization slowly creep north. The only anthropologists/archeologists who disagree? Japanese ones. In Japan, the idea that small bands of nomads were turned into sedentary cities by copying Korea, with the help of Korean settlers.

Nobody in WWII really thought much about anybody else's point of view. Everybody was convinced that they were the best nation and all others could stick it in their ear. That was true of the Japanese, too. They were never going to release their claims on China, Korea, and other ring of fire nations. They certainly weren't going to do it because their ambassador to the US had been given a stern talking-to.

You are hanging on to your points with your bare hands because they support your conclusion that Belgium could have escaped the harshness of other countries' war. Don't start with a conclusion. Start with facts and build up to whatever conclusion they may support.

Also, your understanding about the "ease" of amending the US Constitution is so magnificently wrong that, as a doctor of laws, I cannot think about it without getting a headache.
 
An interesting book on Hitler's peace offers has been posted by Saggy in post #119: https://www.amazon.com/What-World-Rejected-Hitlers-1933-1940-ebook/dp/B00M5K8OEM.

Saggy is a holocaust denier. The author of Saggy's book that you quoted from is Friedrich Stieve. Friedrich Stieve authored books during WWII for the National Socialist government’s Ministry for Propaganda.
https://www.amazon.com/New-Germany-Picture-Foreign-German/dp/1684549752

You then said
"When you see a webpage explaining that Hitler killed six million Jews, you never know if its author really believes that, or if he/she is actually too scared to deviate from the "official" view.

Ironically, you are quoting the official view of the NSDAP's wartime Ministry of Propaganda.

According to your own credibility rating rules in your "ESP Test" thread, we can now dismiss all your posts in this thread, as having no credibility. It is that simple.

////////////////////

I further note that in the "ESP test" thread Michel H claimed everyone (including animals) on Earth read his thoughts. Yet when I posted his full name, he asked me to stop doing this to protect himself. This objectively indicated Michel H does not believe what he posts, which further erodes his credibility by his own defined rules.
 
Japan could have shown restraint by not invading China and killing hundreds of thousands of its population, Germany could have shown restraint by not invading Poland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Luxembourg, France, the USSR, Greece and god knows where else, Italy could have shown restraint by not embarking on a battle royal with the Albanian fire brigade
Yes, I agree (mostly) with this text, Hitler could have showed some restraint by annexing only the Polish corridor in 1939, Japan could have limited its territorial ambitions to Manchukuo and Korea (and not violently invaded the rest of China), and Italy could not have invaded Albania.

Note, by the way, that we live a rather different situation nowadays: for example, it is not clear to me what kind of "restraint" Iran, victim of U.S. sanctions, could show, without humiliating itself. However, Israel could show restraint by renouncing its planned (illegal) annexation of the Jordan valley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_the_Jordan_Valley).
 
Yes, I agree (mostly) with this text, Hitler could have showed some restraint by annexing only the Polish corridor in 1939, Japan could have limited its territorial ambitions to Manchukuo and Korea (and not violently invaded the rest of China), and Italy could not have invaded Albania.

I think it's telling that you see invading a foreign country a bit at a time rather than all at once as restraint, but defending oneself against aggression by economic sanctions designed specifically to remove the ability to wage war without impacting the health of the civilian population as lack of restraint. To describe this point of view as biased is a colossal understatement.

Dave
 
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It seems to me that, in July of 1941, Roosevelt could have invited ambassador Nomura to have a discussion in the Oval Office, with Secretary of State Cordell Hull, and explained to him that the American people were gravely concerned about reports (from multiple reliable sources) of Japanese atrocities in China. If these didn't stop, and if Japan didn't stop its invasion of China, he could have said, then, to their great regrets, the United States would have to sanction Japan by restricting oil exports, in order to apply serious pressure on Japan, without, however, going so far as trying to crush its economy and its military (there was no need to humiliate Japan by withdrawing all the oil used by its military). I see no reason why ambassador Nomura, and Japanese leaders, would not have understood such a pedagogic (and gradual) approach.

Good lord! Does Michel even realize that what he describes above was indeed the approach of the Roosevelt administration. It has been known for quite sometime that by May 1941 the Japanese government had decided to move south against the European Colonial Empires. Since Japan was allied to Hitler's Germany this was viewed as a threat to US interests. Hitler had since April 1941 been encouraging Japan to attack the USA, even offering to declare war on the USA if Japan did so, even if Japan did not attack Russia.

The USA was well aware of the possibility of Japan attacking the European Colonial Empires and it appears that the suspicions were entirely warranted. The oil embargo Michel complains about was not in response to Japan's war with China but to the Japanese occupation to all of French Indo-China which was viewed in Japan has a necessary step in preparation for Japan to attack the European Colonial Empires.

And once again Michel "forgets" that the oil embargo etc., was a peaceful, non-violent response to Japanese aggressive stupidity. Michel's characterization of it as some sort of horrible wicked response is actually fairly funny.

Michel also waxes eloquently about the horrors of humiliating Japan and how unbearable it was. The Japanese governments had since World War 1 humiliated China in a myriad number of ways, but Chinese humiliation doesn't count I guess. I could of course talk about the humiliation of the Koreans. (Ever wonder why the Korean Admiral Yi Sun Shin is basically Korea's national hero?)

Japan's fee fees had to be protected, other people's not so much, I guess. (Snark)
 
And who was the instigator of every crisis in Europe in the 1930s? Hitler's Germany. Who was wedded to the belief that war was both necessary and desirable? Adolf Hitler. Who did I suspect you have a poster of on your bedroom wall...

And over the last few pages Michael H is whitewashng Hitler's "Honorary Aryan " buddies in Japan as well.
I thought that Michael H was just somebody nieve and ignorant of History who had fallen for the Neo Nazi nonsense, but now I am pretty much convinced. he is one.
 
An interesting book on Hitler's peace offers has been posted by Saggy in post #119: https://www.amazon.com/What-World-Rejected-Hitlers-1933-1940-ebook/dp/B00M5K8OEM.

"- The full text of Hitler’s “Appeal for Peace and Sanity” speech, made before the Reichstag on July 19, 1940, following the fall of France. In that speech, Hitler once again offered unconditional peace to Britain. This speech was printed in English and dropped by the tens of thousands from German aircraft over Britain. Although nearly half the British cabinet wanted to take up his offer, Churchill’s warmongering put an end to this final offer of peace"

Hitler's one hour speech where he justifies Germany's invasion of Poland, Norway, and thanks Stalin, and states he supported Mussolini's peace mediation offer was never dropped as leaflets over England. The speech was broadcast by radio in German to German allies. Hitler described the allied leaders essentially as stooges for International Jewish and Freemasonic interests.

Michel H simply is simply using wartime German Ministry of Propaganda disinformation supplied to him by Saggy, a holocaust denier. It is holocaust denial propaganda.


You can hear the entire speech translated into English for the first time, here
https://archive.org/details/HitlersVictoryAFinalAppealForPeaceAndSanityJuly19th1940
 
Hitler's one hour speech where he justifies Germany's invasion of Poland, Norway, and thanks Stalin, and states he supported Mussolini's peace mediation offer was never dropped as leaflets over England. The speech was broadcast by radio in German to German allies. Hitler described the allied leaders essentially as stooges for International Jewish and Freemasonic interests.

Michel H simply is simply using wartime German Ministry of Propaganda disinformation supplied to him by Saggy, a holocaust denier. It is holocaust denial propaganda.


You can hear the entire speech translated into English for the first time, here
https://archive.org/details/HitlersVictoryAFinalAppealForPeaceAndSanityJuly19th1940
Hitler's one hour speech where he justifies Germany's invasion of Poland, Norway, and thanks Stalin, and states he supported Mussolini's peace mediation offer was never dropped as leaflets over England.
I wonder how you can know this; you are not supplying any proof for your claim.

An excerpt of Adolf Hitler's July 19, 1940 speech:
My Last Appeal to Great Britain

A GREAT EMPIRE WILL BE DESTROYED

By ADOLF HITLER, Chancellor of Germany

Speech made to the Reichstag, July 19, 1940
...
It never has been my intention to wage wars, but rather to build up a State with a new social order and the finest possible standard of culture. Every year that this war drags on is keeping me away from this work.

Only a few days ago Mr. Churchill reiterated his declaration that he wants war ...
In this hour I feel it to be my duty before my own conscience to appeal once more to reason and common sense in Great Britain as much as elsewhere. I consider myself in a position to make this appeal, since I am not the vanquished, begging favors, but the victor speaking in the name of reason. I can see no reason why this war must go on. I am grieved to think of the sacrifices it will claim. I should like to avert them. As for my own people, I know that millions of German men, young and old alike, are burning with the desire to settle accounts with the enemy who for the second time has declared war upon us for no reason whatever. But I also know that at home there are many women and mothers who, ready as they are to sacrifice all they have in life, yet are bound to it by their heartstrings.

Possibly Mr. Churchill again will brush aside this statement of mine by saying that it is merely born of fear and of doubt in our final victory. In that case I shall have relieved my conscience in regard to the things to come.
(http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1940/1940-07-19b.html)
 
I wonder how you can know this; you are not supplying any proof for your claim.

1) I have linked you to the actual translation of Hitler's full speech.

2) It is you who claimed and quoted "
This speech was printed in English and dropped by the tens of thousands from German aircraft over Britain. Although nearly half the British cabinet wanted to take up his offer, Churchill’s warmongering put an end to this final offer of peace"

Show me your evidence this entire speech from Adolf Hitler was translated into English and tens of thousands dropped by German aircraft over England. Was it 25 pages long? Was it 30 pages long?

What date was it dropped?. Which half of the cabinet members wanted to accept a German speech as a peace offer? Name them.


You simply copied a BS claim of another holocaust denier. I checked archives.
 
I wonder how you can know this; you are not supplying any proof for your claim.

An excerpt of Adolf Hitler's July 19, 1940 speech:

(http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1940/1940-07-19b.html)

Well. If he really wanted peace, he could always have offered to go back to the prewar borders of Germany. Those of the beginning of 1938 would sound reasonable, I think. Of course for a real peace it would have to mean reparation for all the damages and suffering caused by Germany to their neighbouring countries. Freeing all the people in concentration camps should also be on the table. A tribunal to find out if any crimes against humanity were committed by that time would be reasonable as well.

If he really had the best for the German people in mind, that would be the thing to do.By the time of that speech German had lost about 75.000 men killed in battle. I don't think there were very many German civilian casualties by this time, but I'll give you 5000, just to make a round number (although I would guess the amount of German civilians killed by this time to be more in the order of a 1000, if that (not from other countries! Het nazis were killing civilians left and right, especially in Poland!).

So. By the time of that speech, Germany had lost about 80.000 of its citizens. By the end of the war these would be joined by something of 4,5 million others, excluding about half a million civilians. And there there were the missing, and the wounded of course.

It would be worth it, wouldn't it? just from the perspective of Germany itself.
If........ if he really wanted peace and had the best for Germany at heart.


At the very least it would have saved my grandfather the experience of being picked up and send as a slave labour to Germany, while my grandmother was just about expecting the birth of my father. Or my grandmother getting evicted from their house and getting told by a Nazi soldier, she was forbidden to feed my father, because he was just a 'sickly Dutch baby'.
 
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I assume everyone is now laughing at Michel H's holocaust denial propaganda claim.

I posted below an actual propaganda leaflet that the Germans dropped on Dunkirk. It is one page, simple and aimed at troops still in France.


In contrast, Michel H is claiming and quoting that German bombers flew over the UK dropping tens of thousands of copies of Hitler's one hour internal propaganda speech to the Reichstag before the blitz started, although no such thing ever happened at all.

Michel based his claim on a comment posted by a holocaust denier who simply made it up and concluded his BS post with "Churchill’s warmongering put an end to this final offer of peace"
 

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I assume everyone is now laughing at Michel H's holocaust denial propaganda claim.

I posted below an actual propaganda leaflet that the Germans dropped on Dunkirk. It is one page, simple and aimed at troops still in France.


In contrast, Michel H is claiming and quoting that German bombers flew over the UK dropping tens of thousands of copies of Hitler's one hour internal propaganda speech to the Reichstag before the blitz started, although no such thing ever happened at all.

Michel based his claim on a comment posted by a holocaust denier who simply made it up and concluded his BS post with "Churchill’s warmongering put an end to this final offer of peace"
Laughing at him? No, not really. Quite a few of us are very well aware of his various...challenges.

Pity might be a more accurate descriptor.
 
In contrast, Michel H is claiming and quoting that German bombers flew over the UK dropping tens of thousands of copies of Hitler's one hour internal propaganda speech to the Reichstag before the blitz started, although no such thing ever happened at all.

Maybe not, but it's well documented that Hitler broadcast the whole thing telepathically to every UK citizen in real time. Unfortunately, since he was thinking in German as well as speaking it, most of the people simply didn't understand it. However, on a subsequent multiple choice test where they were asked whether Hitler was asking them to (a) Continue fighting, (b) Come round to the Reichstag for dinner, (c) Surrender or (d) Take lessons in Argentinian Tango, 29% of the population selected (c), proving beyond possible doubt that telepathy is a thing.

Dave
 
Maybe not, but it's well documented that Hitler broadcast the whole thing telepathically to every UK citizen in real time. Unfortunately, since he was thinking in German as well as speaking it, most of the people simply didn't understand it. However, on a subsequent multiple choice test where they were asked whether Hitler was asking them to (a) Continue fighting, (b) Come round to the Reichstag for dinner, (c) Surrender or (d) Take lessons in Argentinian Tango, 29% of the population selected (c), proving beyond possible doubt that telepathy is a thing.

Dave

That irony will only work on those unaware of the other threads.
 
And once again Michel "forgets" that the oil embargo etc., was a peaceful, non-violent response to Japanese aggressive stupidity. Michel's characterization of it as some sort of horrible wicked response is actually fairly funny.

Well, I'd say there's a bigger WTH about this. And I'm gonna be long-winded, as usual, so bear with me.

The embargo actually didn't come out of nowhere. It actually WAS as part of a series of diplomatic talks that went on from 1937 to literally the day before Pearl Harbour. As in literally, President Roosevelt telegraphed to Tokyo a personal message to the Emperor of Japan on December 6. But all through 1941, starting on March 8, there were intensive talks with Japan to try to solve the situation peacefully. Japan stalled and lied, as evidenced by it going on and occupying South Indochina mere DAYS after reassuring the USA that oh noes, they're totally not looking to conquer anything, and are all about self-defense and (I kid you not) preventing the war in Europe from spreading to Asia.

It also did not escallate from zero to embargo over night. It went from terminating the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan in 1939, to the Export Control Act in 1940, to freezing Japanese assets in the USA on July 26, 1941, to finally the oil embargo on August 1, 1941. That's more than two years of talks, and each step of the escalation being only taken after Japan clearly didn't give a crap about the previous sanctions, and wasn't taking the talks as anything but a joke. Japan continued to LIE about it all the way through, and wouldn't accept anything short of 'the USA must immediately stop all aid to China, and give us everything we want.' (Not only oil, I might add, but also nickel and a few other resources.) Basically nothing short of the USA helping build up the Japanese military was acceptable.

So here's the WTH part: so our friend Michel expects talks to go... HOW? If any escalation beyond empty talks and giving them all they want anyway is not an option, then WTH is even the point of having talks?
 
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In fact, here's an idea: if the USA is supposed to have absolutely no control over its foreign policy and exports, and essentially the only acceptable option is to give Japan everything it wants, from materials to stopping your relations with who they want you to... then WTH is the functional difference between that and being a puppet state of Japan?
 
To renew and expand upon another question I've posed, and which you've ignored, Michel, please explain why it was unreasonable for the US and Britain to have insisted on unconditional surrender when, as I mentioned, Churchill and FDR1 were well aware that Germany and Japan were capable of developing nuclear weapons, especially when Germany was clearly much farther along than the Allies in the development of cruise missiles and heavy rockets.2_______________
1A slight correction to my previous post on this subject. Although Einstein and Szilárd wrote their letter before Germany attacked Poland, FDR didn't actually receive it until October of 1939. However, he immediately recognized the danger, and ordered the military to begin studying the issue.

2I should note here that Spock's comment about putting nuclear weapons on V-2s in the classic ST:TOS episode "The City on the Edge of Forever" is incorrect. The V-2 had a payload of 1000 kg; a first-generation atomic bomb weighed about four times that. So the Germans would have had to have built a much larger rocket to carry a nuke, but obviously they would have been much better positioned to have done so than the Allies were.
 
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---snip---
2I should note here that Spock's comment about putting nuclear weapons on V-2s in the classic ST:TOS episode "The City on the Edge of Forever" is incorrect. The V-2 had a payload of 1000 kg; a first-generation atomic bomb weighed about four times that. So the Germans would have had to have built a much larger rocket to carry a nuke, but obviously they would have been much better positioned to have done so than the Allies were.



They were certainly working on much larger lift vehicles (at least on paper). A single stage A-10, with a Fat Man style implosion device would have been able to reach London for Central Europe.
 

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2) It is you who claimed and quoted "This speech was printed in English and dropped by the tens of thousands from German aircraft over Britain. Although nearly half the British cabinet wanted to take up his offer, Churchill’s warmongering put an end to this final offer of peace"
Actually, I didn't claim that
This speech was printed in English and dropped by the tens of thousands from German aircraft over Britain.
.
I just mentioned the book "What the World Rejected: Hitler’s Peace Offers 1933–1940" by Friedrich Stieve, and I said it was interesting, but not necessarily accurate and reliable.

However, it is true that copies of Hitler's July 19, 1940 Reichstag speech were dropped from German aircraft over Britain:
A couple of months after the bus incident I was visiting Ramsey, a small village about four miles from Harwich, and found a German leaflet in the Hedgerow, which in all probability had been dropped by a bomber returning from an air raid on London. The leaflet, is double A3 size and has close type on all four sides. ... The heading and brief note on some of the more salient points are:
A LAST APPEAL TO REASON BY ADOLF HITLER
SPEECH BEFORE THE REICHSTAG, 19 JULY 1940
The leaflet emphasised Hitler’s regret that, in spite or all his determined and honest efforts, he had not succeeded in achieving the friendship with England which he believed would have been a blessing for both people.

Two thirds of the last page deals with the proposed future four year plan for Germany and ending with Hitler’s final statement:

"In this hour I feel it to be my duty before my own conscience to appeal once more to reason and common sense, in Great Britain as much as elsewhere. I consider myself in a position to make this appeal since I am not the vanquished begging favours, but the victor speaking in the name of reason. I can see no reason why this war must go on.

Possibly Mr Churchill will again brush aside this statement of mine by saying that it is merely of fear and doubt in our final victory. In that case, I shall have relieved my conscience in regards to the things to come.”
(link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/10/a4081510.shtml)

This webpage has a picture of the actual leaflet.
 

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