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Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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theheno said:
I think most people on this forum don't actually live in the real world.
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In the real world we have uncontroversial one-word shorthand for female mammals such as deer and cattle and pigs and horses, but not humans.

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I spent most of my life declaring that I wasn't a feminist because that war had been won. Because no rich person says "I'm as good as you" to the pauper. No beauty queen says "I'm as good as you" to the ugly duckling. No genius says "I'm as good as you" to the moron. So I never felt the need to says "I'm as good as you" to any man.

Then I discovered what was actually going on with transactivism.
 
Rolfe said:
I spent most of my life declaring that I wasn't a feminist because that war had been won. Because no rich person says "I'm as good as you" to the pauper. No beauty queen says "I'm as good as you" to the ugly duckling. No genius says "I'm as good as you" to the moron. So I never felt the need to says "I'm as good as you" to any man.
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Wait, so in your head women are the rich, the beautiful, the geniuses; and men are the paupers, the ugly, the morons?

Your brand of feminism seems ridiculously toxic, sexist, and generally hateful. Is that the battle feminists have been fighting this whole time? I always considered myself a feminist, but if that's what winning is supposed to look like I'm gonna have to join the counter-insurgency or whatever.
 
theprestige said:
Wait, so in your head women are the rich, the beautiful, the geniuses; and men are the paupers, the ugly, the morons?

Your brand of feminism seems ridiculously toxic, sexist, and generally hateful. Is that the battle feminists have been fighting this whole time? I always considered myself a feminist, but if that's what winning is supposed to look like I'm gonna have to join the counter-insurgency or whatever.
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I think you should read Rolfe's post again. She said "no rich person..." , not "no rich man..."
 
lionking said:
I think you should read Rolfe's post again. She said "no rich person..." , not "no rich man..."
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No, you need to read it again. Here's the comparisons her post set up:

rich person > poor person
beauty queen > ugly duckling
genius > moron
Rolfe > men

Yes, she didn't say "rich man", but that's not relevant. It's better to be rich than poor. It's better to be beautiful than to be ugly. It's better to be a genius than a moron. And apparently, it's better to be Rolfe than a man.
 
Ziggurat said:
No, you need to read it again. Here's the comparisons her post set up:

rich person > poor person
beauty queen > ugly duckling
genius > moron
Rolfe > men

Yes, she didn't say "rich man", but that's not relevant. It's better to be rich than poor. It's better to be beautiful than to be ugly. It's better to be a genius than a moron. And apparently, it's better to be Rolfe than a man.
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That you take this from Rolfe’s post is very telling.

Theprestige completely misinterpreted Rolfe’s post and so do you.
 
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lionking said:
That you take this from Rolfe’s post is very telling.

Theprestige completely misinterpreted Rolfe’s post and so do you.
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If Rolfe intended something other than what I described, then she did a very, VERY bad job at conveying that other meaning, because it's hard to conclude from the words themselves that it could mean anything else.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Out of how many trans prisoners? What's the offense rate compared to cis-men and compared to cis-women?
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You're absolutely right - that is crucial information that is missing (for reasons I've gone in to above), and which would be needed in order to demonstrate that self-identification in prisons leads to meaningful harm.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Okay, color me dull. How does a male-bodied person pass as a woman, if not through 1) hormone therapy and potentially surgical alteration or 2) dressing like, behaving like, or presenting as their identified gender?
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I suppose to answer that question you could start off by asking yourself how women behave and whether those behaviours are shared by 100% of women.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I'm not sure what you're looking for here. We don't exactly have a lot of information on this topic at all, given that it hasn't been an option until quite recently.
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I gave a list of countries in which such laws exist. Data will be available from those countries.

And while it's true that self-identification laws are relatively new (the oldest being 10 years, IIRC), there are already institutions that have been using self-identification for a while. The three main ones that are usually brought up as a reason not to introduce such a law - public toilets, women's shelters, and prisons, already rely on self-identification. So not only are they also sources of data, but they demonstrate that they're moot as examples, because this law wouldn't actually affect how they already operate.

As it stands, there HAS been an uptick.
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Okay, demonstrate that.
 
lionking said:
That you take this from Rolfe’s post is very telling.

Theprestige completely misinterpreted Rolfe’s post and so do you.
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Sigh. The post was actually a paraphrase of a passage in an essay on feminism by Dorothy L. Sayers. The intent is to convey the point that when someone feels secure in their own position with no feelings of inferiority, they don't run around declaring "I'm as good as you are" to the people they don't feel disadvantaged in relation to. Feminism in my view from about the age of 11 was an articulation of a feeling of being disadvantaged that I simply didn't have.

It was only at the age of 63 that I discovered what the trans agenda was all about and realised that this was no longer the case and that I'd quite possibly been living in a fool's paradise all along.

Another interesting exchange I had recently. I remarked that I couldn't really get my head round it but it seemed as if the trans advocacy brigade really believe that transwomen are literally women. No they don't, was the reply. Look at the way they treat actual women. The scorn, the dismissiveness, the threats, the doxxing and so on. If they actually thought transwomen were literally women they'd be treating them like that too. That they treat them as the group that must have all its demands granted proves they know perfectly well that they're men.

ETA: I just saw this on Twitter.

Before the GRA, 'living as a woman' meant being alive, and being female.

After the GRA it was redefined as a performance of sexist stereotypes by a man.
If performed successfully, a panel of judges would approve the way men 'lived as women'.

Before the GRA, women and girls were recognised as female people.

We were legally afforded the right to distinguish ourselves truthfully from male people.
All male people.

After the GRA, we were open to legal punishment & sanctions for distinguishing ourselves from male people.

Before the GRA, the law had considered & already REJECTED the idea that what makes us female is our ladybrains.
(Corbett v Corbett)

The GRA not only successfully reintroduced the false idea of ladybrains, it enshrined it such that ladybrain OUTRANKS sex.
Penis+ladybrain = female

People who think the GRA should be left alone now aren't considering what this law does to the recognition of my sex.

There are 33 million girls and women in the UK.

This law redefines ALL OF US.
Into something we're not.
So that some men can say they AND WE are the same thing.

To disregard the legal recognition of an entire sex, to blitz our right to distinguish ourselves from men honestly, to threaten punishment upon us for non compliance?

This is the cost of the GRA remaining.

Men are not women.
We are not what this law says we are.
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Being a woman has been redefined as someone who performs a particular set of sexist stereotypes, and is progressing to being defined as "anyone who says they are, whether they bother with the sexist stereotypes or not". The people who benefit from this are men, and it should come as no surprise to see men so enthusiastically supporting it.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
It's only a danger to a small number of natal women, it's not a big deal.
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I think that every rape is a big deal, and it's dishonest and unpleasant of you to suggest otherwise.

The point is that evidence has been posted earlier in the thread which suggests that trans women are not more of a threat to cis women than other cis women are. The question isn't whether there's a risk in having any particular trans woman in a women's prison, just as the question isn't whether there's a risk in having any particular cis woman in a women's prison. For some given women the answer will always be "yes". Rapist women exist, and some of those will be cis and some will be trans. The question is whether allowing trans women into spaces reserved for women makes the other women in those spaces less safe.

If it cannot be demonstrated that the answer to that question is "yes", then anybody who holds the opinion that it does must admit that their opinion is not based on facts.

And all of this is still moving away from the actual topic - which is what basis there is to believe that a law which allows for self-identification will cause harm.
 
Since this appears to be coming up: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

How many transgender prisoners?
It's difficult to know exactly how many transgender prisoners there are. We asked the agencies responsible across the UK.

In April 2017, 17 of Scotland's 7,436 prisoners were transgender, according to the Scottish Prison Service.

Northern Ireland's prison service chose not to tell us whether it counts trans prisoners, but according to Parliamentary research, it is not aware of any.

In England and Wales, the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) now conducts an annual count of prisoners.

Between March and April 2017, it counted 125 transgender inmates in England and Wales, in a prison population of 85,513. It counted 70 over the same period in 2016.

These are the best available figures, but they're far from perfect.

The MoJ points out the numbers may change as prisoners constantly enter and leave the system.

It says the figures "are not yet a reliable reflection of the numbers and location of trans prisoners in the prison estate".

The MoJ can't count inmates who have not told prison staff they are transgender.

Nor does it count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).

About 250-350 GRCs are issued each year across the UK - 4,910 since 2005.

The survey only counts prisoners who have already had a case conference - a meeting of senior managers and other officials - to decide how to manage the trans person within the prison estate.

These are likely to be prisoners serving longer sentences.

The Ministry of Justice told us "prisoners on longer sentences are more likely to be managed as a transgender prisoner than those on shorter sentences".

That's because there's little point having a case conference if the inmate won't be in prison long enough to benefit from it.
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So the only accurate answer to the question of how many trans prisoners there are in the UK justice system is that we don't know, because there is no reliable data.
 
d4m10n said:
This makes some sense to me, given the fraught and heated debates between those (typically second wave) feminists who want to liberate women from male oppression rooted in the patriarchal imperative to control the means of reproduction and the newer, more fashionable feminists who feel that ciswomen should stand in solidarity with transwomen, even if their lived experience of oppression may be significantly different. I've little doubt that Rolfe, for example, considers herself a feminist in the former camp.
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I don't know. I've not experienced, from a third person perspective, much oppression of women up here.
 
They've been doing that all along. Why do you think I seldom post in this thread? While men who "perform femininity" are elevated to the status of Most Oppressed who must have their every whim catered to, actual women are dismissed and see their arguments distorted and misrepresented.
 
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