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Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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caveman1917 said:
I can remember reading chats from MRA groups explicitly talking about using trans-advocacy as a weapon against feminists...
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This makes some sense to me, given the fraught and heated debates between those (typically second wave) feminists who want to liberate women from male oppression rooted in the patriarchal imperative to control the means of reproduction and the newer, more fashionable feminists who feel that ciswomen should stand in solidarity with transwomen, even if their lived experience of oppression may be significantly different. I've little doubt that Rolfe, for example, considers herself a feminist in the former camp.

ETA: Came across this preprint article from Kathleen Stock awhile back:
View attachment Stock - Not the social kind.pdf

It explains much of the tension I've described above over who should be included and defended under the rubric of "womanhood" but in dryly unemotional philosophical and semantic terms.
 
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Well, you're talking about gender roles, modes of dress, behaving "like" a particular gender, etc.
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Okay, color me dull. How does a male-bodied person pass as a woman, if not through 1) hormone therapy and potentially surgical alteration or 2) dressing like, behaving like, or presenting as their identified gender?

Is there some other method of passing that I am unaware of? Especially in the context of transwomen don't even want to pass?
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
That is, again, an isolated incident. Nobody is claiming that there can't be isolated incidents, or individuals who abuse any system.

You'll note that I linked to statistics demonstrating the harm that the law as it currently stands causes to transgender people. An isolated incident does nothing to counter that. What you need to do is to demonstrate, for example, that there has been an uptick in incidents of people self-identifying as trans in order to gain access to women's spaces and in doing so harming the women who are there. As it is, all I see is people supposing that that will be the case, without actually referring to any data.
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I'm not sure what you're looking for here. We don't exactly have a lot of information on this topic at all, given that it hasn't been an option until quite recently. We can't look back at "historical events" and see a change in rates of a thing that wasn't an option back then.

As it stands, there HAS been an uptick. There've been at least a few documented cases of sexual offenders claiming to be transgender in order to gain access to victimize natal women. There are only a few that make news.. but I ran across some stuff yesterday talking about problems especially in the prison system, but that a lot of it is not well documented.

I'm not really sure how to have this discussion with you when you say "it hasn't happened", and then you're given specific instances where it has happened, and they you say "Those are isolated incidents, they don't count".

Right now, they're all going to be isolated incidents aren't they? It's not a big population to begin with... and this is a new paradigm. There aren't going to be any large scale statistical surveys for a long, long time.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Well, we can't know until and unless it's actually tested. We can say for sure that it hasn't been in the past 5 years, so any danger appears to be minimal, and should be considered relative to the harm it has mitigated.
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It's only a danger to a small number of natal women, it's not a big deal. Much more important that we reduce the risk to a very small number of natal men who are transwomen?

I get where you're coming from, I really do. But there's a part of me that is quite displeased with men deciding what amount of risk women should be expected to take on. Especially when it is seems that cis-men are putting the safety and well being of natal men who identify as transwomen ahead of the safety and well being of cis-women. It's not sensitive and it's not in keeping with the "transwomen are women" perspective, but it sometimes feel like men think that men are more important than women.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
society generally. Why aren't prison rapes front page news except when perpetrated by trans inmates?
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Because prisons are sex segregated! And women in women's prisons are not routinely subject to being raped by the penises of other inmates while they're incarcerated!

Prison rape of men by men in men's prisons is a problem, and it's one that should be addressed. But moving people with penises into women's wards where they now have access to women who would not otherwise be exposed to that risk, in the name of being sensitive to transgender "rights" is not even remotely a solution, and seems fairly unconscionable!
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
A known rapist of women was allowed to commit rapes of women in custody and apparently this is because she's trans, not because she is a known violent sexual offender.
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Holy cow, you're completely missing the point.

Yes, it is because she is trans. Her being trans is THE ONLY REASON she was put into the women's prison in the first place!
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Rape is routinely occurring in women's prisons and no one could be bothered about it until it was caused by a trans person.

According to the guardian, there have been 7 sexual assaults by trans women in these jails. That leaves 117 rapes that are A-ok, because no dangerous trans people were involved.

Cherry picking these trans rapes reveals that people are really motivated by anti-trans animus and don't give a **** about prison rape.
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OMG! Rape was occurring VERY RARELY per-capita in women's prisons. And yes, people were bothered by it. The PER CAPITA rate of rapes ROSE considerably with the addition of only a FEW transwomen who committed rapes against female inmates!

Holy ****, I'm going to need to take a break.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
My point is that trans women aren't a unique problem. Prison rape runs rampant, even more so in men's facilities.
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:rolleyes: Hey guys, women in prison getting raped by male inmates isn't a big deal. Men get raped in prison too.

SuburbanTurkey said:
Throwing these trans women into men's prison places them at tremendous danger of being a victim of sexual assault
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:boggled: Hey guys, transwomen might get raped if you put them in a men's prison. Let's put them in a women's prison, where they're much more likely to be the perpetrators than the victims. It's no big deal if women get raped.
 
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caveman1917 said:
Of course, that still leaves the question why several trans-advocacy groups in the UK were so adamantly opposed to separate facilities and demanded male sexual offenders be put in the female prisons instead for these past couple of years. I mean, it's a peculiar position to take, no?
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I think it is an effect of wanting to be accepted by all of society as being just as much of a woman as natal women are, and asking that everyone ignore any biological or other differences that persist.
 
Belz... said:
Do you really think that MRAs support trans rights? I'd rather think the opposite, and that it's their ideological opposites who support people like Yaniv.
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Wouldn't the opposite of MRAs be strong feminists? Because I'm pretty sure they don't support people like Yaniv, and thus we get the term "TERF".
 
d4m10n said:
This makes some sense to me, given the fraught and heated debates between those (typically second wave) feminists who want to liberate women from male oppression rooted in the patriarchal imperative to control the means of reproduction and the newer, more fashionable feminists who feel that ciswomen should stand in solidarity with transwomen, even if their lived experience of oppression may be significantly different. I've little doubt that Rolfe, for example, considers herself a feminist in the former camp.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Rolfe (along with myself) are neither of those, and probably lean slightly more toward the latter than the former.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Out of how many trans prisoners? What's the offense rate compared to cis-men and compared to cis-women?
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In England and Wales trans women constitute not more than 1% of the female prison population and were responsible for 7 out of 124 assaults on female prisoners, (5.6%) from the figures I've seen. I believe that prisoners born male without a gender recognition certificate have only been able to request a transfer to a female prison on the basis of self identification since 2016. It would be interesting to know what proportion of these cases occurred since then, but I can't find that data.
 
theheno said:
I think most people on this forum don't actually live in the real world.
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Welcome to ISF. I'll be interested to see which parts of the real world you think some people don't live in.

My observation of today's society is that the real world doesn't live in the real world anymore.
 
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