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Split Thread Tearing Down Statues Associated With Racial Injustice

They are the widely reported numbers (slightly rounded from the exact figures hence the word 'nearly') for the number of people his company enslaved and transported and the number of those who died en route during the years he sat on the board of the Royal African Company which monopolised the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, a business that was literally based on the idea that people with black skin had no more rights than cattle and could be captured, broken, bred, branded worked to death or killed without consequence.


I really don't care if he went to church, that doesn't make someone good, and his charity is considered by many historians (as with much charity from business doners at the time) to have been ineffectual and self serving, a show of philanthropy was socially expected and such public shows of largess conferred social, political and business advantages, just as they do to this day.

I think you miss the point I am trying to make. I apologise because I am obviously not explaining it well. He was a share holder in the Royal African Company, for twelve years, the figures I have seen suggest that over that time about sixty thousand persons were transported as slaves, of which perhaps twelve thousand may have died. If you say that he was a bad man because he was involved with something that was evil, there is little for us to learn, he is just dismissed as being a bad man. He did this evil thing because he was evil.

If we move away from defining him as evil, perhaps to say as a normal person. A person like you and I. Then the story becomes something of relevance to us. How did he as a normal person come to be engaged with something of this sort. How can we as normal people avoid being seen as evil by the future?

Just pitching the statue in to the sea, is ignoring the unpleasant fact that slavery still exists. Those who smoked tobacco participated in the slave trade. Tobacco kills eight million people a year. There are people who are shareholders in companies causing many deaths today. Companies whose wealth was based on slavery. Modern day slavery remains a racist process. Perhaps a more important action for the normal people of today to take is to learn from Colston and ask when I invest my money what are the human costs? Is this Asian woman in the nail parlour a slave? Who grows the cannabis I buy? What about the cheap fashion? Where is my pension fund investing? The slave trade is happening now. that is the true evil.

Colston is dead and gone. We cannot know what he thought, whether he was racist, whether he turned a blind eye to the realities of the slave trade. Slavery was not a racist concept. At this time there were galley slaves in the mediterranean. North African slavers devastated the economy of the European Mediterranean coast causing massive depopulation and an economic impact that it took until the mid twentieth century to recover from. North African slavers raided the coast of England and Ireland, 7,000 English people were abducted between 1622-1644. Cromwell notoriously sent thousands of Irish to the Caribbean as indentured servants, as close to slavery as English law would allow. Until the Atlantic slave trade, what the slave trade meant was Europeans being enslaved and transported and sold in Middle East and Africa; hence the term slave. Europeans enslaved Europeans, Africans enslaved Europeans, Europeans enslaved Africans, Africans enslaved Africans. All was evil, but would people at that time have seen slavery as exclusively the right of the white man to inflict upon the African? Was racism a necessary prerequisite for the slave trade or was a racist society a consequence?

I would argue the best use of Colston is not to dismiss him as an evil man from whom we have nothing to learn but a normal human being, what did Colston fail to do? And if we do not want to end up being seen as like him as evil participants in slavery what do we need to do not to be part of the slave trade?
 
Planigale speaks sooth.

(I had never heard about North African abductions from England and Ireland. Must google.)
 
As is so often the case with mob actions in the days of cell phone cameras, people will analyze and pick apart the events. Two groups of people travel to a place to confront each other and, against all odds, fighting starts. Whodda thunk it? Now let's pick apart the camera footage to see who is at fault.

It has to be done, of course. Someone ended up shot. That's a pretty big deal. You can't just say, "Who cares? They were all part of the groups causing trouble."

In this video, we have a group of people showing up with tools (picks and such) specifically bent on destruction of public property. Another group has weapons, to threaten people who are destroying public property. Now we see a man trying to make his way through the crowd. A women deliberately obstructs his movement. The man uses force to end her obstruction. He roughly casts her aside, causing pain, but not obviously injury. A crowd threatens the man, causing fear. He pulls a gun, and shoots someone.

Trying to sort out in all that mess seems difficult to me, but prosecutors will do it, I suppose. I think the guy with the gun is probably going to be on the losing end when it's sorted out. He will certainly claim that the threatening mob justified self defense, but will the prosecutors and/or jurors buy it?

What I'm certain of is that the statue wasn't harming anyone. It wasn't even a symbol of oppression, unless perhaps oppression in the distant past. People hating on Confederate statues could make the case that those statues are symbols of modern subjugation, put in place specifically to intimidate black people. Can we say the same about conquistadors? Placing that statue was a means of making sure the Indians knew who was boss?

It's not that hard to parse if you try. The lady was blocking his path and he threw her violently to the ground. She's seen clutching the back of her head, indicating it likely impacted. Unambiguous criminal battery.

There's other video from earlier in the protest of him shoving protesters at the statue. He's clearly out for a physical confrontation.


He's been charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon. The woman that blocked his path has not been charged with anything. Maybe an adventurous prosecutor could argue disorderly conduct. There's no parity between the violence used by the people here.
 
I think you miss the point I am trying to make. I apologise because I am obviously not explaining it well. He was a share holder in the Royal African Company, for twelve years, the figures I have seen suggest that over that time about sixty thousand persons were transported as slaves, of which perhaps twelve thousand may have died. If you say that he was a bad man because he was involved with something that was evil, there is little for us to learn, he is just dismissed as being a bad man. He did this evil thing because he was evil.

If we move away from defining him as evil, perhaps to say as a normal person. A person like you and I. Then the story becomes something of relevance to us. How did he as a normal person come to be engaged with something of this sort. How can we as normal people avoid being seen as evil by the future?

Just pitching the statue in to the sea, is ignoring the unpleasant fact that slavery still exists. Those who smoked tobacco participated in the slave trade. Tobacco kills eight million people a year. There are people who are shareholders in companies causing many deaths today. Companies whose wealth was based on slavery. Modern day slavery remains a racist process. Perhaps a more important action for the normal people of today to take is to learn from Colston and ask when I invest my money what are the human costs? Is this Asian woman in the nail parlour a slave? Who grows the cannabis I buy? What about the cheap fashion? Where is my pension fund investing? The slave trade is happening now. that is the true evil.

Colston is dead and gone. We cannot know what he thought, whether he was racist, whether he turned a blind eye to the realities of the slave trade. Slavery was not a racist concept. At this time there were galley slaves in the mediterranean. North African slavers devastated the economy of the European Mediterranean coast causing massive depopulation and an economic impact that it took until the mid twentieth century to recover from. North African slavers raided the coast of England and Ireland, 7,000 English people were abducted between 1622-1644. Cromwell notoriously sent thousands of Irish to the Caribbean as indentured servants, as close to slavery as English law would allow. Until the Atlantic slave trade, what the slave trade meant was Europeans being enslaved and transported and sold in Middle East and Africa; hence the term slave. Europeans enslaved Europeans, Africans enslaved Europeans, Europeans enslaved Africans, Africans enslaved Africans. All was evil, but would people at that time have seen slavery as exclusively the right of the white man to inflict upon the African? Was racism a necessary prerequisite for the slave trade or was a racist society a consequence?

I would argue the best use of Colston is not to dismiss him as an evil man from whom we have nothing to learn but a normal human being, what did Colston fail to do? And if we do not want to end up being seen as like him as evil participants in slavery what do we need to do not to be part of the slave trade?


Fun fact re: the highlighted. There are very few statues of Cromwell here. :cool:


I think I get what you are trying to say, but I feel you have it backwards. The point isn't that Colston was normal, the point is that slavery is bad. Colston's statue should be pulled down and he should be denigrated for his part in the slave trade, but you're right those who pull the statue down or support pulling it down should be using their energy from that to question how their own actions support modern slavery.
 
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I think you miss the point I am trying to make. I apologise because I am obviously not explaining it well. He was a share holder in the Royal African Company, for twelve years, the figures I have seen suggest that over that time about sixty thousand persons were transported as slaves, of which perhaps twelve thousand may have died. If you say that he was a bad man because he was involved with something that was evil, there is little for us to learn, he is just dismissed as being a bad man. He did this evil thing because he was evil.

If we move away from defining him as evil, perhaps to say as a normal person. A person like you and I. Then the story becomes something of relevance to us. How did he as a normal person come to be engaged with something of this sort. How can we as normal people avoid being seen as evil by the future?

You have convinced me we need a statue to all the members of the nazi party who never personally did anything heinous but merely profited from being nazis. Those normal people need to be honored for being just people.
 
It's not that hard to parse if you try. The lady was blocking his path

Well, yes. For those who weren't watching the video, she is not passively standing there. She has her arms outstretched and is moving to prevent his motion. He was trying to reach the statue. She was actively trying to prevent him from getting there by physically resisting him.

Sigh....

Yes, he has been charged, although I don't know if the charges included grabbing the woman.

It's just the sort of thing that happens when mobs get together. Things escalate. People get pushed and shoved. The pushing and shoving gets more extreme. Maybe punches are thrown. Then somebody has a gun and...


But....but....we have to take down the statues! And in this case, there's no evil state government telling the local government that they can't move the statues. And on top of that, those conquistador statues in New Mexico are basically a way of Hispanics standing up and saying, "We are not Anglos!" so we have people tearing down statues that celebrate a minority heritage.

This is so much more complicated than "White people bad".
 
Well, yes. For those who weren't watching the video, she is not passively standing there. She has her arms outstretched and is moving to prevent his motion. He was trying to reach the statue. She was actively trying to prevent him from getting there by physically resisting him.

Sigh....

Yes, he has been charged, although I don't know if the charges included grabbing the woman.

It's just the sort of thing that happens when mobs get together. Things escalate. People get pushed and shoved. The pushing and shoving gets more extreme. Maybe punches are thrown. Then somebody has a gun and...
But....but....we have to take down the statues! And in this case, there's no evil state government telling the local government that they can't move the statues. And on top of that, those conquistador statues in New Mexico are basically a way of Hispanics standing up and saying, "We are not Anglos!" so we have people tearing down statues that celebrate a minority heritage.

This is so much more complicated than "White people bad".

The "mob" didn't have guns. Right wing reactionaries had guns. There's no parity in the violence here. Some people showed up to take down a statue, the others showed up with weapons, including guns, to confront protesters. Again and again the same story plays out. Right wingers show up to do violence and bring guns.

It's a moot point. Violent counter-protesters are doing more work than protesters could ever hope to accomplish. The statue is gone. Nobody wants to be associated with these armed militia nuts or reactionary counter-protesters.
 
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I think you miss the point I am trying to make. I apologise because I am obviously not explaining it well. He was a share holder in the Royal African Company, for twelve years, the figures I have seen suggest that over that time about sixty thousand persons were transported as slaves, of which perhaps twelve thousand may have died. If you say that he was a bad man because he was involved with something that was evil, there is little for us to learn, he is just dismissed as being a bad man. He did this evil thing because he was evil.

If we move away from defining him as evil, perhaps to say as a normal person. A person like you and I. Then the story becomes something of relevance to us. How did he as a normal person come to be engaged with something of this sort. How can we as normal people avoid being seen as evil by the future?

Just pitching the statue in to the sea, is ignoring the unpleasant fact that slavery still exists. Those who smoked tobacco participated in the slave trade. Tobacco kills eight million people a year. There are people who are shareholders in companies causing many deaths today. Companies whose wealth was based on slavery. Modern day slavery remains a racist process. Perhaps a more important action for the normal people of today to take is to learn from Colston and ask when I invest my money what are the human costs? Is this Asian woman in the nail parlour a slave? Who grows the cannabis I buy? What about the cheap fashion? Where is my pension fund investing? The slave trade is happening now. that is the true evil.

Colston is dead and gone. We cannot know what he thought, whether he was racist, whether he turned a blind eye to the realities of the slave trade. Slavery was not a racist concept. At this time there were galley slaves in the mediterranean. North African slavers devastated the economy of the European Mediterranean coast causing massive depopulation and an economic impact that it took until the mid twentieth century to recover from. North African slavers raided the coast of England and Ireland, 7,000 English people were abducted between 1622-1644. Cromwell notoriously sent thousands of Irish to the Caribbean as indentured servants, as close to slavery as English law would allow. Until the Atlantic slave trade, what the slave trade meant was Europeans being enslaved and transported and sold in Middle East and Africa; hence the term slave. Europeans enslaved Europeans, Africans enslaved Europeans, Europeans enslaved Africans, Africans enslaved Africans. All was evil, but would people at that time have seen slavery as exclusively the right of the white man to inflict upon the African? Was racism a necessary prerequisite for the slave trade or was a racist society a consequence?

I would argue the best use of Colston is not to dismiss him as an evil man from whom we have nothing to learn but a normal human being, what did Colston fail to do? And if we do not want to end up being seen as like him as evil participants in slavery what do we need to do not to be part of the slave trade?

I made a similar post in another thread regarding the ongoing problem the world has with modern day slavery. Most people out marching in the streets aren't interested in it. Working closely with many active charities throughout this community that work with branches across the globe, it's funny how so few young woke people I meet are actively taking part or giving their spare time up to make a difference. There are kids in many cities here in the UK, black and white, who barely eat a meal a day, and nobody gives a toss. Homeless people everywhere, black and white, who don't know what "privilege" is.

Slavery didn't go anywhere. Even buying a simple avocado throughout the USA is funding Mexican cartels who in turn are enslaving poor people to do their work or face certain death via brutal murder.

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/02/07/avocados-mexican-drug-cartels

Don't get me started on supposed "Queens of Pop" like Beyonce who have often ignored ties to sweat shops.

Slavery didn't go away, and what's being done to stop it?

http://www.endslaverynow.org/learn/...nvJzTivUgBrVh7vWjXEhr8XJe6UxDbXxoCGLAQAvD_BwE

During my time working for several security companies, I've come into contact with gangs who traffic women for sex, especially from poorer European areas, I've seen the brothels. In truth, not many people give two ***** about any of it.
 
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I think you miss the point I am trying to make. I apologise because I am obviously not explaining it well. He was a share holder in the Royal African Company, for twelve years, the figures I have seen suggest that over that time about sixty thousand persons were transported as slaves, of which perhaps twelve thousand may have died. If you say that he was a bad man because he was involved with something that was evil, there is little for us to learn, he is just dismissed as being a bad man. He did this evil thing because he was evil.

If we move away from defining him as evil, perhaps to say as a normal person. A person like you and I. Then the story becomes something of relevance to us. How did he as a normal person come to be engaged with something of this sort. How can we as normal people avoid being seen as evil by the future?

There's a saying popular around here that says, "Bad people will always do bad things. To get good people to do bad things requires religion."

Unfortunately, it often gets interpreted around here as "Religions are bad."

I think the real message of the saying is similar to what you are writing. I don't think it's specifically religion that causes good people to do bad things. I think it's ideology in general, and conformance to the norms of society. If that society is corrupt or evil, then the actions of good people within that society will end up being corrupt and evil.

Colston was a "product of his times" as I wrote before, meaning he did the evil that his society tolerated and encouraged. Was he a good person doing bad things, or a bad person doing bad things? There's insufficient data to draw that conclusion I think. He gave a bunch of money to hospitals. That seems like it ought to go on the "good" side of the ledger. He did bad things by trading slaves, certainly, but were those things bad on his own initiative, or was that just him conforming to the bad society. I don't have an opinion on the subject. Some people here have hinted that he went beyond the "expected" level of bad for the 17th century.

And, ultimately, the important thing is to examine our own behavior and ask ourselves what we can do to stop the evil that our society condones, or at least tolerates, by looking the other way.

(I'm going to have to look up the connection between slaves and canabis. New one to me.)
 
You have convinced me we need a statue to all the members of the nazi party who never personally did anything heinous but merely profited from being nazis. Those normal people need to be honored for being just people.

It is interesting you say this. My grandfather fought in the WW2 he went to Belsen (after the war). I can remember him explaining to me that the Germans weren't evil. That what happened in Germany could have happened in Britain or any other country. There is not some German exceptionalism that leads the rest of the world to being immune from committing genocide, that many normal people were participants in the crimes of the Nazis.


We do not learn from holding these people to be exceptions, we learn from knowing that they are like us. I am not arguing that they should be honoured for being normal people that participated in evil. But we need to learn that normal people like us can be participants in racism or greater crimes. Institutional racism and sexism occurs when normal people do what normal people have been doing, they nominate a friend to replace them as a member of a committee, a friend like them, instead of insisting that action is taken so that all eligible for membership have a chance. Racism and sexism occurs in everyday acts, anti-semitism occurred in everyday acts for Germans in the 1930s. 'Woke' means being aware of the consequences of your decisions, what do you know about the veg you are buying in the supermarket, the clothes you buy.

Perhaps there is a very real challenge in a statue that says 'this was a man like you and me, he strove to do well, but did evil'. Why did he do evil? What can we do to avoid doing the same? The slave trade is not history, it is a present atrocity. This should not be a discussion of past sins but present horrors.
 
There's a saying popular around here that says, "Bad people will always do bad things. To get good people to do bad things requires religion."

Unfortunately, it often gets interpreted around here as "Religions are bad."

I think the real message of the saying is similar to what you are writing. I don't think it's specifically religion that causes good people to do bad things. I think it's ideology in general, and conformance to the norms of society. If that society is corrupt or evil, then the actions of good people within that society will end up being corrupt and evil.

Colston was a "product of his times" as I wrote before, meaning he did the evil that his society tolerated and encouraged. Was he a good person doing bad things, or a bad person doing bad things? There's insufficient data to draw that conclusion I think. He gave a bunch of money to hospitals. That seems like it ought to go on the "good" side of the ledger. He did bad things by trading slaves, certainly, but were those things bad on his own initiative, or was that just him conforming to the bad society. I don't have an opinion on the subject. Some people here have hinted that he went beyond the "expected" level of bad for the 17th century.

And, ultimately, the important thing is to examine our own behavior and ask ourselves what we can do to stop the evil that our society condones, or at least tolerates, by looking the other way.

(I'm going to have to look up the connection between slaves and canabis. New one to me.)

Yes, perhaps you explain the concept better than I can express myself.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jul/26/vietnamese-cannabis-farms-children-enslaved
 
Planigale speaks sooth.

(I had never heard about North African abductions from England and Ireland. Must google.)

Read 'The Sealwoman's Gift', about a North African slave raid on Iceland and the people taken into slavery.

Perhaps not in Colston's time but certainly in earlier generations slavery and the slave trade would have meant Europeans being enslaved and traded. That is why slaves and slavs were synonymous. A slave was a European.
 
It's not that hard to parse if you try. The lady was blocking his path and he threw her violently to the ground. She's seen clutching the back of her head, indicating it likely impacted. Unambiguous criminal battery.



There's other video from earlier in the protest of him shoving protesters at the statue. He's clearly out for a physical confrontation.





He's been charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon. The woman that blocked his path has not been charged with anything. Maybe an adventurous prosecutor could argue disorderly conduct. There's no parity between the violence used by the people here.
Inspector Finch's epiphany moment from V for Vendetta has been circling around in my head for a few days.

"But I can guess...

With so much chaos, someone will do something stupid. And when they do, things will turn nasty."
 
Further videos showed that the gunman had assaulted a woman immediately prior to the shooting. He shot a man as he attempted to flee the crime scene. The gunman started a fight and pulled out his gun when he was rightfully getting his ass kicked.

Got whiplash from this one

EaozV7kUcAAjUBb
 
Got whiplash from this one

[qimg]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaozV7kUcAAjUBb?format=jpg&name=small[/qimg]

It wasn't exactly articulate, and I had a hard time working it out. It's obviously some guy spouting stereotypical right wing rhetoric, such as identifying the statue destroyers as "Antifa". I don't think they had anything to do with Antifa, even if "Antifa" was actually an organization.

They were wearing masks, but I think there's an alternative explanation for that.


Anyway, it's fairly simple what the tweeter was saying. The man with the gun was in fact being threatened. However, I don't think the prosecutor or the jury will buy it as justifying deadly force. I think it's more like the guy in Florida who shot the man after he was pushed.

If it goes to trial, self defense will indeed by the strategy used by the statue protector, but I don't think it will be a successful defense.
 
Got whiplash from this one

[qimg]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaozV7kUcAAjUBb?format=jpg&name=small[/qimg]

It gets better:

Police medics stated that the victim was shot in the back. Steven Baca was discharged from the military for "assault, fleeing the scene of an accident, insubordination and failure to obey an order" after he got into a fight with a sergeant over wearing his cover (hat) indoors.

Video of the event shows he shoved two other women prior him throwing the woman to the ground, resulting in a head impact. It was only after the third, more serious assault that the crowd attempted to detain him, which Baca responded to by shooting.

Seems that escalating things to violence a repeat problem for Mr. Baca.

https://www.krqe.com/news/albuquerque-metro/accused-protest-shooter-subject-of-2012-larry-barker-investigation/?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral
 
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