Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Belz...]

Karen White, by all accounts, was not pretending. Before she transitioned, she regularly dressed in drag as a man. She later fully transitioned and had sexual reassignment surgery.

She is not an example of a man pretending to be trans to rape women. She's just dangerous.

I was not talking about any specific examples but about the general argument that is being discussed often on these topics.

I am not of the opinion that trans people are, as a group, any more or less dangerous than another group.

 

[caveman1917]

The option you cited did not exist prior to the incident being discussed. Seems that this case spurned action to create a trans prison wing for especially dangerous inmates, which is much better than just labeling trans women "men" and tossing them into a men's prison to be repeat targets of rape.

Seems you missed the whole debate in the UK. It's basically been two camps, feminist groups arguing that transgender male sex offenders be given their own facility (as now happened) and trans-advocacy groups disagreeing and arguing that they should be put in female prisons. In 2016 the latter group "won" and male sexual offenders started being put in female prisons, and after the obvious result occurred (Karen White was the catalyst but not the only one) the government decided to go with the other option and create a separate facility.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Seems you missed the whole debate in the UK. It's basically been two camps, feminist groups arguing that transgender male sex offenders be given their own facility (as now happened) and trans-advocacy groups disagreeing and arguing that they should be put in female prisons. In 2016 the latter group "won" and male sexual offenders started being put in female prisons, and after the obvious result occurred (Karen White was the catalyst but not the only one) the government decided to go with the other option and create a separate facility.

Great. Now we can all go back to not caring about rampant prison rapes because trans people are no longer involved. Justice!

 

[caveman1917]

Great. Now we can all go back to not caring about rampant prison rapes because trans people are no longer involved. Justice!

I'm sure you can. As I'm sure the feminist groups referenced earlier will continue their work on safety and conditions in female prisons, including safety from sexual offences by other female prisoners and staff.

 

[Meadmaker]

Incidentally, I reiterate my challenge once again - can anybody who objects to a self-identification law point to any measurable harm caused by one? If not, then can you explain why it is you object? It's not because of the women's shelter thing, since women's shelters have been admitting tans women for a long time, operating on a policy of self-identification, and therefore the law wouldn't change the status quo there.

If you can't either provide any evidence that such a law causes harm, and you can't explain what your actual objection is, then perhaps you should consider alternative viewpoints?

If a girl has to take off her clothes in front of a male student, you won't call that harm. If you don't see harm when a girl loses a race against a transgirl, you won't see any harm. If a transman gets raped in a male only space, that certainly can't be blamed on the transman, so it's unfair to say that harm is caused by self identification. If a woman gets anxious in the presence of a male who is in a women's only space, that's not harm. That's bigotry.

ETA: And these aren't specifically related to a specific law, so it can be dismissed.

 

[caveman1917]

Of course, that still leaves the question why several trans-advocacy groups in the UK were so adamantly opposed to separate facilities and demanded male sexual offenders be put in the female prisons instead for these past couple of years. I mean, it's a peculiar position to take, no? it's like arguing for registered child molesters to be given jobs in elementary schools, and when it is pointed out that there are plenty of jobs they can take that don't work with children, to just double-down on the demand that the jobs given must be in elementary schools.

 

[Belz...]

Of course, that still leaves the question why several trans-advocacy groups in the UK were so adamantly opposed to separate facilities and demanded male sexual offenders be put in the female prisons instead for these past couple of years. I mean, it's a peculiar position to take, no?

Not if you believe that there's literally no difference between a trans-X and a X.

Which is the peculiar thing, since the definition of the prefix "trans" specifically sets it apart from whatever follows.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

You have asked for examples.

No I have not. I've reposted the question 4 times now.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Oh, and not an isolated incident.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tes-carried-seven-sex-attacks-women-jail.html

Okay, so 5-6 trans prisoners have committed sexual assault against other prisoners in the past decade. That's still a small number, and the question is about whether trans people pose a particular threat.

FWIW, the government's review of transgender prisoners had this to say:

We have seen no evidence that being transgender is in itself linked to risk.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I suspect the two victims of Karen White would claim the harm to them was measurable. That's what you asked for.

Are we really going to do the thing where you tell me that I'm wrong about the meaning of what I wrote?

Karen White was responsible for assaults on two other inmates. That's two incidents straight away, not one.

We're talking about whether or not trans people pose a risk to cis women. One trans person posing a risk is one trans person posing a risk, not two.

You asked for evidence that self-identification could lead to harm.

No I didn't. I asked for evidence of measurable harm caused by self-identification laws, to counter the statistical of harm caused by the current law, which I provided.

It may well be the case that, overall, self-identification is the better option, but don't pretend it is without problems that are not purely hypothetical.

It's literally just a couple of posts ago that I said that there will always be people who exploit any system. And here you are claiming that I'm ignoring what I've explicitly acknowledged.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Oh, incidentally, I've stated it in other threads on this subject, and I'll state it again here - if you misgender, I will simply not engage with you at all.

 

[Meadmaker]

Oh, incidentally, I've stated it in other threads on this subject, and I'll state it again here - if you misgender, I will simply not engage with you at all.

What if we mis-sex?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I can't find further information, but the article listed that the new transgender wing is only housing 3 women at the time, which includes Karen White.

Surely there are more than 3 trans-women who are in women's prisons in the UK. Is it right to assume that, beyond these 3 special cases of especially dangerous individuals, trans-women continue to be housed in the general women's prison?

Treating dangerous individuals on a case-by-case basis seems like an appropriate response. Throwing all trans women into some isolated, segregated unit or turning them over to be victimized in men's prisons does not. I am relieved that the UK seems to be taking the former, not the latter, approach.

I don't see why being trans should be a criteria for removal from the general prison population. Inmates who victimize other inmates should be segregated appropriately.

 

[Joe Random]

What if we mis-sex?

Aren't there legal brothels in Nevada?

 

[caveman1917]

Not if you believe that there's literally no difference between a trans-X and a X.

Which is the peculiar thing, since the definition of the prefix "trans" specifically sets it apart from whatever follows.

It's not just that though, I'm sure there are plenty of well-meaning braindead pomo's who actually believe there is literally no difference a transwoman and a woman and therefor male sexual offenders should be put in female prisons if they self-id as women. But there is also, especially at the higher levels, a clear MRA campaign against feminists and women in general.

Just remember the wide support from high places that Jessica Yaniv got for his various complaints against immigrant women refusing to wax his balls. For example Morgane Oger (Vice President of the British Columbia New Democratic Party and chair of the Trans Alliance Society) standing by Janniv tweeting things like "We are all forced to do some things we don't like in our work, grow up" or "Human rights matter, get used to it" after speaking with Yaniv on the phone, while trying to help cover up Yaniv's activities by getting people reporting on them banned from twitter and wordpress. When the information about Yaniv did become public even against Morgane's attempts at censoring them and Morgane wasn't able to keep up the charade, he made a full U-turn and claimed to have been forced by "TERFS" to cover up for Yaniv. That's of course when Morgane isn't too busy trying to shut down rape shelters and such. Neither is this the only instance, there's also things like the "Social Justice University" (not an actual university, more like an activist group) granting Yaniv an honorary degree in Transgender Advocacy after suing those women.

So while it's certainly true that there are many well-meaning people, I'd also bet that there are at least some high-level leaders of trans-advocacy groups who were adamant about Karen White being placed in the female prison rather than a separate transgender prison not because they believed that there's literally no difference between a transwoman and a woman but because they wanted to get female prisoners assaulted out of sheer misogyny.

 

[Belz...]

It's not just that though, I'm sure there are plenty of well-meaning braindead pomo's who actually believe there is literally no difference a transwoman and a woman and therefor male sexual offenders should be put in female prisons if they self-id as women. But there is also, especially at the higher levels, a clear MRA campaign against feminists and women in general.

Do you really think that MRAs support trans rights? I'd rather think the opposite, and that it's their ideological opposites who support people like Yaniv.

 

[caveman1917]

Do you really think that MRAs support trans rights? I'd rather think the opposite, and that it's their ideological opposites who support people like Yaniv.

I can remember reading chats from MRA groups explicitly talking about using trans-advocacy as a weapon against feminists, can't give a link though (it was a couple of years ago and I haven't saved it). Either way, a google search reveals things like this and this.

 

[Belz...]

I can remember reading chats from MRA groups explicitly talking about using trans-advocacy as a weapon against feminists, can't give a link though (it was a couple of years ago and I haven't saved it). Either way, a google search reveals things like this and this.

I'll take your word for it. I just have a hard time imagining people being so cynical.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Surely there are more than 3 trans-women who are in women's prisons in the UK.

I was looking at this a while ago, and there are no reliable figures. The official figure, IIRC, is something like 120-130. But the way that is counted is to look at people who went through the same in-prison assessment that White did. Excluded are people who already had GRC certificates when entering prison, and people who don't go through the review process.

So not only does it exclude people who already have legal recognition as trans, but the figures are biased towards people with longer sentences who will therefore have committed worse crimes. It's because of this weighting that these figures are used by some anti-trans groups to try to make the argument that trans people are more criminal or more dangerous that cis prisoners.

 

[caveman1917]

I'll take your word for it. I just have a hard time imagining people being so cynical.

You obviously haven't been reading any incel/far-right/mra/... chat records then, this is hardly the most cynical idea they've come up with over time. Though usually the ideas are more about framing leftists/poc/feminists/... for various crimes they (the chatters) intend to commit. Got a few of those in Belgium back in the 90s, one owner of a fascist bar burned down his own bar to blame leftists, another one blew up a grenade on his own front door to blame leftists, etc. Never underestimate the cynicism of the fash and related groups such as mra's.