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Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
No goalpost moving, here. Re-read the challenge: "can anybody who objects to a self-identification law point to any measurable harm caused by one?"

An isolated incident is not that. An isolated incident is an isolated incident.

Are you seriously making the case that your entire objection to this law is based on that one isolated incident? Somehow I doubt it, but if you say it is, I'll take you at your word.

As for whether I was playing silly buggers, if I was doing that I'd simply have dismissed your post by pointing out that I asked for harm caused by the implementation of a self-identification law, which you did not provide. Instead I recognised that you were attempting to comply with the spirit of the request and engaged in good faith. To which you responded with dishonest, hand-waving dismissal.
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Utter nonsense. You have asked for examples. You have been given them. Be honest and accept you are wrong.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Wake me up when they start caring about the sexual assaults not caused by trans people.
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That's highly disingenuous. There are about 4000 women in the UK's female prisons, who are collectively responsible for about 12 sexual assaults per year (or 0.3% chance for a female prisoner per year to engage in a sexual assault). There are also about 20 male inmates in the UK's female prisons, who are collectively responsible for about 2 sexual assaults per year (or 10% chance for a male inmate per year to engage in a sexual assault, about 300x higher). Yet you say that women in prison should be exposed to this 300x higher incidence rate merely because prisons haven't been able to completely eradicate the minute 0.3% chance of a female prisoner engaging in a sexual assault?

If I didn't know better I'd say you just want women to be sexually assaulted all the while acting all woke about it.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
No goalpost moving, here. Re-read the challenge: "can anybody who objects to a self-identification law point to any measurable harm caused by one?"
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I suspect the two victims of Karen White would claim the harm to them was measurable. That's what you asked for.

An isolated incident is not that. An isolated incident is an isolated incident.
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Karen White was responsible for assaults on two other inmates. That's two incidents straight away, not one. The Fail reports that there were seven altogether.

Are you seriously making the case that your entire objection to this law is based on that one isolated incident? Somehow I doubt it, but if you say it is, I'll take you at your word.
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I'm saying no such thing. You asked for evidence that self-identification could lead to harm. I gave you some. Whether you feel those incidents are not severe enough to count against changing the legislation to allow self-identification is a different matter. It may well be the case that, overall, self-identification is the better option, but don't pretend it is without problems that are not purely hypothetical.
 
caveman1917 said:
That's highly disingenuous. There are about 4000 women in the UK's female prisons, who are collectively responsible for about 12 sexual assaults per year (or 0.3% chance for a female prisoner per year to engage in a sexual assault). There are also about 20 male inmates in the UK's female prisons, who are collectively responsible for about 2 sexual assaults per year (or 10% chance for a male inmate per year to engage in a sexual assault, about 300x higher). Yet you say that women in prison should be exposed to this 300x higher incidence rate merely because prisons haven't been able to completely eradicate the minute 0.3% chance of a female prisoner engaging in a sexual assault?

If I didn't know better I'd say you just want women to be sexually assaulted all the while acting all woke about it.
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Karen White was a convicted rapist of women when she entered prison. And yet, she was still able to commit rape while in custody. It's almost as if the prison system doesn't even try to stop it.

A known rapist of women was allowed to commit rapes of women in custody and apparently this is because she's trans, not because she is a known violent sexual offender.

Prison rape is a real problem. It's a scandal that more isn't done by those whose duty it is to protect inmates. Focusing on trans perpetrators is missing the bigger picture, unless, like many in society, you consider non-trans rape to be an acceptable fate for prisoners.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Karen White was a convicted rapist of women when she entered prison. And yet, she was still able to commit rape while in custody. It's almost as if the prison system doesn't even try to stop it.

A known rapist of women was allowed to commit rapes of women in custody and apparently this is because she's trans, not because she is a known violent sexual offender.
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Well yes exactly, that's why people are disagreeing with putting male sexual offenders in female prisons merely because they self-id as women.
 
caveman1917 said:
Well yes exactly, that's why people are disagreeing with putting male sexual offenders in female prisons merely because they self-id as women.
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We could all rest easier if inmates were only subjected to cis-gendered rapes, as is proper.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
We could all rest easier if inmates were only subjected to cis-gendered rapes, as is proper.
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I've got an even better idea. Let's host male sexual offenders in women's rape shelters. Hey, don't worry, if someone says that is dangerous we can deflect by pointing out that there must be at least some instances of women in those shelters engaging in offences, therefor of course we must also host male sexual offenders there - who cares that the risk factors are orders of magnitude higher, right?

And did you know that registered child molesters are not allowed to work in elementary schools? Clearly this is baseless discrimination and bigotry, after all there have been some incidents of child molestation by people who weren't registered child molesters, therefor registered child molesters must be given a job in elementary schools, right?

Like I said, highly disingenuous argument of yours.
 
caveman1917 said:
I've got an even better idea. Let's host male sexual offenders in women's rape shelters. Hey, don't worry, if someone says that is dangerous we can deflect by pointing out that there must be at least some instances of women in those shelters engaging in offences, therefor of course we must also host male sexual offenders there - who cares that the risk factors are orders of magnitude higher, right?

And did you know that registered child molesters are not allowed to work in elementary schools? Clearly this is baseless discrimination and bigotry, after all there have been some incidents of child molestation by people who weren't registered child molesters, therefor registered child molesters must be given a job in elementary schools, right?

Like I said, highly disingenuous argument of yours.
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Rape is routinely occurring in women's prisons and no one could be bothered about it until it was caused by a trans person.

According to the guardian, there have been 7 sexual assaults by trans women in these jails. That leaves 117 rapes that are A-ok, because no dangerous trans people were involved.

Cherry picking these trans rapes reveals that people are really motivated by anti-trans animus and don't give a **** about prison rape.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Rape is routinely occurring in women's prisons and no one could be bothered about it until it was caused by a trans person.
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Okay but what does that have to do with anything? It's fine of you to point out that the larger problem is being ignored but that does not address the original argument against integration.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Rape child molestation is routinely occurring in women's prisons elementary schools and no one could be bothered about it until it was caused by a trans person registered child molester.

According to the guardian, there have been 7 sexual assaults by trans women registered child molesters in these jails schools. That leaves 117 rapes that are A-ok, because no dangerous trans people registered child molesters were involved.

Cherry picking these trans registered child molester rapes reveals that people are really motivated by anti-trans registered child molester animus and don't give a **** about prison rape child molestation.
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Fixed that for you. People only care about registered child molesters working in elementary schools because they're bigots! It has nothing to do with a comparison of risk factors and incidence rates! Children also sometimes get molested by people who aren't registered child molesters! Give registered child molesters jobs in elementary schools!

Yes, that is exactly how you sound.
 
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Belz... said:
Okay but what does that have to do with anything? It's fine of you to point out that the larger problem is being ignored but that does not address the original argument against integration.
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My point is that trans women aren't a unique problem. Prison rape runs rampant, even more so in men's facilities. Most of the time the general public don't care, so nothing is done about it.

The people up in arms about trans women committing prison rape are suspiciously silent about the widespread problem of cis-gendered rape that regularly occurs in these facilities.

Throwing these trans women into men's prison places them at tremendous danger of being a victim of sexual assault, because the safety of inmates in prisons is grossly neglected by those who have a duty to ensure it (at least in the US).
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
My point is that trans women aren't a unique problem. Prison rape runs rampant, even more so in men's facilities. Most of the time the general public don't care, so nothing is done about it.

The people up in arms about trans women committing prison rape are suspiciously silent about the widespread problem of cis-gendered rape that regularly occurs in these facilities.
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Actually no, many of the people up in arms about male sex offenders being but in female prisons are the same feminist groups who have been engaged for years regarding safety and conditions in female prisons.

Throwing these trans women into men's prison places them at tremendous danger of being a victim of sexual assault, because the safety of inmates in prisons is grossly neglected by those who have a duty to ensure it (at least in the US).
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False dilemma, you pretend as if there are only two options. Yet there are special transgender prison facilities so could you explain why it is such a big problem for transgender male sexual offenders to be placed in a separate facility? Why must they be put in a female facility?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
My point is that trans women aren't a unique problem.
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No one's saying that they are. Only that their specific situation, and the solutions proposed to accomodate them, raise issues. That's not the same thing as saying that trans people are a problem. In fact, even on the right few people make that claim, at least directly. Their argument is that these solutions allow non-trans people to pretend to be trans in order to abuse others.
 
caveman1917 said:
Actually no, many of the people up in arms about male sex offenders being but in female prisons are the same feminist groups who have been engaged for years regarding safety and conditions in female prisons.



False dilemma, you pretend as if there are only two options. Yet there are special transgender prison facilities so could you explain why it is such a big problem for transgender male sexual offenders to be placed in a separate facility? Why must they be put in a female facility?
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The option you cited did not exist prior to the incident being discussed. Seems that this case spurned action to create a trans prison wing for especially dangerous inmates, which is much better than just labeling all trans women "men" and tossing them into a men's prison to be repeat targets of rape.

I look forward to similar action being taken to ensure other inmates aren't exposed to known rapists who aren't trans. Let's just wait, I'm sure it will be forthcoming.
 
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Belz... said:
No one's saying that they are. Only that their specific situation, and the solutions proposed to accomodate them, raise issues. That's not the same thing as saying that trans people are a problem. In fact, even on the right few people make that claim, at least directly. Their argument is that these solutions allow non-trans people to pretend to be trans in order to abuse others.
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Karen White, by all accounts, was not pretending. Before she transitioned, she regularly dressed in drag as a man. She later fully transitioned and had sexual reassignment surgery.

She is not an example of a man pretending to be trans to rape women. She's a trans woman who is a repeat and vicious offender.
 
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