Split Thread Tearing Down Statues Associated With Racial Injustice

[Andy_Ross]

Why not Churchill?

Well Baden Powell had a lot of things to say on the subject of homosexuality and how it was a crime against nature and god.
Also in 1939 he expounded on how Hitler had it right about the Jews and Slavs and what a good plan for society was contained in Mein Kampf.
I don't know why there is a statue of him in the first place.

 

[Andy_Ross]

While I certainly understand that there are a lot of cases where people have grievances against those in statues, I think that sometimes it just goes to far.

So today a statue of Captain John Fane Charles Hamilton​, for whom the city of Hamilton was named, was removed after threats of vandalism to it.

The person making the threats claimed that Hamilton was a "Muderous *******" and should not be honoured as a hero.

I decided to look him up and find out what it was that was so bad about him.

So Hamilton was the Captain of the HMS Esk which was sent to New Zealand during the land wars. It arrived from Australia Station in NSW, picked up the Commander of the British Forces in NZ, Lieutenant-General Duncan Cameron, in Auckland, and sailed down to Tauranga to where the British Forces were being attacked and incited to do battle with the local Maori after they landed and set up camp. The British forces had been told not to engage the locals whom they viewed as neutral, but the local Chief decided to strike first believing that the British would attack them eventually anyways.

As Part of this, the local Maori built a Pa (fortifications) above the British camps, called Gate Pa. After arriving at the site on the 21st of April, 1864 and studying the situation for several days, Cameron determined that they would have to assault the Pa, an action that lead to one of the biggest defeats in British Colonial history.

Hamilton's part in the battle was to lead his 43rd Light Infantry into the battle. However accounts of his part in the battle indicate that his sum total of action was to draw his sword, shout, "Follow me" and then on entering the battle he was immediately killed after being shot in the head. He had been in New Zealand for just eight days.

Now, there is certainly an argument that naming a city and having a statue of a guy that died almost instantly in what was consider to have been one of the worst defeats of British Forces is a bad idea. However is staggers me and baffles me how a guy that was in New Zealand for just eight days and then died on entering the one military operation he was involved in could possible be a "Murderous *******" worthy of such vitriol.

Lindybeige has a talk on it 30 minutes long

The Storming of Gate Pah - the defeat of the British by Maori warriors

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Why not Churchill?

Indeed. Why not?

 

[lionking]

Indeed. Why not?

Apart from the fact that he was one of the most revered Brits of the 20th century?

Christ, what a joke this thread had become! A handful of people in a mob disgruntled by some ancient event can vandalise with impunity? This seems to be what you are suggesting.

Please list the reasons Churchill’s statue should be destroyed. And don’t try to weasel out of my request by saying “I didn’t say it should be destroyed”. That won’t fool anyone.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Apart from the fact that he was one of the most revered Brits of the 20th century?

The question is whether the myth reflects the reality.

Please list the reasons Churchill’s statue should be destroyed. And don’t try to weasel out of my request by saying “I didn’t say it should be destroyed”. That won’t fool anyone.

Please list the reasons why you beat your wife. And don't try to weasel out of my request by saying "I don't beat my wife". That won't fool anyone.

 

[Darat]

FWIW, Little Britain, Come Fly With Me, and Bo Selecta have been removed from many streaming platforms due to their use of blackface.* "The Germans" episode of Fawlty Towers has also been removed (presumably for its use of racial slurs pertaining to black people more than its lampooning of Germans and invocation of Hitler).

*Leigh Francis posted a sincere-seeming video apologising for his use of blackface, claiming not to have had any negative feedback at the time and not having fully understood the implications, and apparently also sent personal apologies to at least one person he was doing an impression of. It's also worth noting that according to Channel 4 Francis was involved with the decision to pull the shows, although what exactly that means is unclear.

OTOH, Harry Enfield went on Radio 4 to defend blackface and used a racial slur, as he did so. There was a backlash over that, over the fact that he and the white host kept talking over the black guest and mispronouncing her name, and over the fact that Radio 4 thought that the issue of blackface even deserved a "both sides" debate.

Blackface was not originally using makeup to change your skin colour, it was the disgusting parody of black people - in the UK infamously illustrated by the "The Black and White Minstrel Show^WP".

I would argue that the "blackface" in Little Britain is "acceptable" as they are creating and acting as different characters and when playing a non-white character being black/non-white was just one of the character's attributes, not the focus of the character. The two creative people behind Little Britain are white males, I would say it would have been more wrong for them not to include characters that are "representative" of Britain today. They dress up as a variety of non-white male characters. From my memory there is one character that I think was probably not OK and that was the "mail order bride" that I think was meant to be from Thailand. For that character being "asian" was the focus of the character.

(All this is from memory so I may not be remembering the extent of their use of non-white characters so what I've said above may be completely wrong!)

 

[lionking]

The question is whether the myth reflects the reality.



Please list the reasons why you beat your wife. And don't try to weasel out of my request by saying "I don't beat my wife". That won't fool anyone.

Pathetic dodge.

 

[dann]

Why not Churchill?

I don't know. Why not? Because he was antifa?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Blackface was not originally using makeup to change your skin colour, it was the disgusting parody of black people - in the UK infamously illustrated by the "The Black and White Minstrel Show^WP".

I would argue that the "blackface" in Little Britain is "acceptable" as they are creating and acting as different characters and when playing a non-white character being black/non-white was just one of the character's attributes, not the focus of the character. The two creative people behind Little Britain are white males, I would say it would have been more wrong for them not to include characters that are "representative" of Britain today. They dress up as a variety of non-white male characters. From my memory there is one character that I think was probably not OK and that was the "mail order bride" that I think was meant to be from Thailand. For that character being "asian" was the focus of the character.

(All this is from memory so I may not be remembering the extent of their use of non-white characters so what I've said above may be completely wrong!)

I didn't really watch it, because I didn't find it funny. But I think there are problems with blacking up beyond what you're listed. And, as you say, it's not the only prejudicial aspect of the programme (and there are more besides).

It is perhaps worth noting that Matt Lucas apologised a while ago, citing it being a different time. Walliams has not.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Pathetic dodge.

If you think it pathetic of me not to defend a position I don't hold and haven't voiced just because you've tried to bully me into doing so, but that seems more like a you problem than a me problem.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Apart from the fact that he was one of the most revered Brits of the 20th century?

Christ, what a joke this thread had become! A handful of people in a mob disgruntled by some ancient event can vandalise with impunity? This seems to be what you are suggesting.

Please list the reasons Churchill’s statue should be destroyed. And don’t try to weasel out of my request by saying “I didn’t say it should be destroyed”. That won’t fool anyone.

1.) Firebombing Dresden, killing countless women, children and other innocents.

2.) Refusing repeated German peace overtures, including when he ordered a peace envoy locked up so parliament couldn't even hear his offer.

Plenty of other bloodthirsty, shortsighted decisions made during that unnecessary war.

Even so, I wouldn't have his statue destroyed. I'd take it down, put it in a museum, and replace it with one of Oswald Mosley or Enoch Powell.

 

[lionking]

1.) Firebombing Dresden, killing countless women, children and other innocents.

2.) Refusing repeated German peace overtures, including when he ordered a peace envoy locked up so parliament couldn't even hear his offer.

Plenty of other bloodthirsty, shortsighted decisions made during that unnecessary war.
Even so, I wouldn't have his statue destroyed. I'd take it down, put it in a museum, and replace it with one of Oswald Mosley or Enoch Powell.

I think I know why you are making such a ridiculous point. I think it’s because your side didn’t win.

Whatever, your points about his strategies in the war are, frankly, wrong.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I think I know why you are making such a ridiculous point. I think it’s because your side didn’t win.
Whatever, your points about his strategies in the war are, frankly, wrong.

Both sides lost, decisively. Took longer for one to see that was the case than it did for the other.

 

[dann]

I think I know why you are making such a ridiculous point. I think it’s because your side didn’t win.

No, the pont is this (FTFH):

1.) Firebombing Dresden, killing countless white women, children and other innocents. (...)

It is no coincidence that he would want to replace it with statues of two Brits, a Nazi and a white supremacist.

 

[dann]

Slavehandlerstatuer rives ned verden over: Hvad skal vi gøre i Danmark? (DR.dk, June 12, 2020)
Statues of slave traders are being torn down all over the world: What should we do in Denmark?

The answer is pretty obvious, but since a couple of Danish kings were involved in the slave-trading business, the question is embarrassing for Danish monarchists and nationalists.

 

[catsmate]

In another thread, the topic of Lovecraft's racism was mentioned, yet we continue to celebrate him as an important author who influences many. In fact, his very likeness was made into an award for authors of Fantasy fiction!

Something that was changed five years ago, with howls of protest from the Usual Suspects.

 

[catsmate]

I believe it was called the South Sea Bubble.

Be fair. He did teach people to go, 'Clunk, Click, every trip', and out their seat belts on.

Pathetic.

Only because he was in a storm and thought he was going to drown.

No. It was rather more than that.

Fighting talk! Take down Nelson?!!! <choke> It will never happen as the average Brit rates Nelson as one of the greatest admirals who ever lived, if not the greatest Brit.

So?

 

[Arcade22]

We're in a singular moment in history. Let's just decide that for now, public order and the people who want the statues preserved are sacrifices we're willing to make. When someone drags a statues and rolls it in the river, they're not burning anything. These seem like harmless outlets for protestors to vent on. It's expedient. We don't need long, drawn-out court battles or hang wringing over these statues. Let's just avail us to the opportunity the destruction of these statues create, feign disapproval and then do nothing. It's the sensible solution. Sometimes, the smart play is to cut your loses. The only people being hurt are people who aren't good enough for out attention anyway.

If history is any guide then iconoclastic outbursts like this are only a symptom of even greater social unrest and conflict.

 

[catsmate]

A group of protesters from the American Indian Movement toppled a Columbus statue outside the Minnesota state capitol building today, which was symbolically more powerful than someone anonymous beheading the statue in Boston for instance. Although, I still confess myself puzzled about why Minnesota would have a Columbus statue at the state capitol.

Everyone else has one...

Though, to be less glib for once, it was part of the Italian immigrant integration movement, especially after the 1024 Immigration Act; remember in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries Italians weren't considered "properly" white. Southern Europeans were classed as "black" for working purposes in the Iron Range, for example. Hence the 'Christopher Columbus Memorial Association'.

 

[catsmate]

I wonder if felony murder charges will be filed. (Assuming pulling down a public statue is a felony.)

It would appear that ST is wrong and on-one was seriously injured.

I see the Confederate apologists over there were upset.