""Abortion Survivor"?

[Ryokan]

I was 2 mm long once. No twat-worshipper's going to tell me that I magically started existing at birth, and somehow wasn't real during gestation.

That's why there are laws about how late into your pregnancy you can abort. In Norway, the limit is the first 12 weeks. You can apply for an abortion between 12 and 16 weeks if you have a good reason, but after 16 weeks it's completely illegal.

I assume the US has similar laws.

ETA : Ban abortions, and your newspapers will soon fill up with how awful illegal abortions are, and how late they are done.

 

[CplFerro]

That's why there are laws about how late into your pregnancy you can abort. In Norway, the limit is the first 12 weeks. You can apply for an abortion between 12 and 16 weeks if you have a good reason, but after 16 weeks it's completely illegal.

I assume the US has similar laws.

So, I didn't exist until I was twelve weeks old? Uh-huh, /that/ makes a lot of sense.

ETA: Ban theft, and more thieves will break their arms falling out of windows!

 

[Ryokan]

So, I didn't exist until I was twelve weeks old? Uh-huh, /that/ makes a lot of sense.

I'm a Buddhist, according to Jack Chick I don't believe anyone exists

But no, the one who used the word 'I' in the quote above didn't exist. Only an extremely small lump of cells.

ETA: Ban theft, and more thieves will break their arms falling out of windows!

I don't get it.

And I can't believe anyone would like to go back to the coathanger era.

 

[RandFan]

So, I didn't exist until I was twelve weeks old? Uh-huh, /that/ makes a lot of sense.

Did you exist when you were one part sperm in your father's testicles an one part egg in your mother's ovaries? When did you exsit?

 

[RandFan]

And I can't believe anyone would like to go back to the coathanger era.

FWIW, I was never swayed by such argument. If abortion is wrong then it is wrong. Facilitating that which is wrong to protect those who would commit wrong is illogical in my point of view.

 

[Ryokan]

FWIW, I was never swayed by such argument. If abortion is wrong then it is wrong. Facilitating that which is wrong to protect those who would commit wrong is illogical in my point of view.

I agree with you, but sometimes the lesser of two evils is still the better deal.

 

[sophia8]

I should have stated at the beginning that I didn't want this thread to turn into an anti-abortion/pro-abortion flamefest. I just want to dicuss the truth or otherwise of this woman's story.

So, gentlemen: CAN IT!!!!!

 

[sophia8]

Getting back to the OP, another claim in her story needs investigating. She states that her mother was 17 at the time of the abortion, which would have made her a legal minor. So what about parental consent?
It shouldn't be too difficult to find out about the California abortion laws in 1977 - I can't imagine they ever allowed elective abortion after 28 weeks.
This story is crying out for an investigative journalist to start digging around - in all of the web articles about Jessen that I've read, there's no mention of how she supports herself. She's looking more and more like another Kaz.

 

[Euromutt]

To my mind, there's only one genuine question surrounding Gianna Jessen--or "Kaz deMille Jacobson" for that matter--which is:
"Has she or someone else managed to delude her into believing this obvious fabrication, or is she lying through her teeth?"

In the case of Gianna Jessen, I'm inclined to think the former (though her foster mother is another matter), while in Kaz's case, I'm inclined towards the latter.

There's another thing that bugs the snot out of me: This Jessen woman has now appeared before the House Judiciary Committee at least twice, and before at least one, possibly both, British Houses of Parliament. Why is it that nobody has apparently ever asked her "Well, that's a fascinating story, Ms Jessen, but can you actually substantiate any of it? Can you identify the clinic? Do you have medical records showing that you were diagnosed with cerebral palsy? Can you provide any medical records showing that you underwent these four operations to which you refer? Can you actually show us a birth certificate? Can you give us any substantial reason, other than your say-so, why we should believe your story?" Am I to conclude that you can waste the time of the legislatures of at least two nuclear powers provided your story is so outrageously far-fetched as to beggar belief, so far-fetched that people will buy simply because they can't believe anyone would tell that blatant a lie?

 

[ysabella]

Abbreviated History of abortion law in California courtesy of Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California.

1973
U.S. Supreme Court ruled the right to have an abortion is protected by the constitution (Roe v. Wade (1973) 410 U.S. 113; Doe v. Bolton (1973) 410 U.S. 179). The Court said that:

1. In the first trimester, the abortion decision is a matter solely between a woman and her physician.
2. In the second trimester, generally 13 to 24-28 weeks gestation, government may regulate abortions, but only in so far as the regulations reasonably relate to protecting the woman's health.
3. From the point of fetal viability on, government may proscribe abortion except in cases where it is necessary to preserve the woman's life or health.

Amendment to Therapeutic Abortion Act specifying research restrictions as applied to fetal remains.

It doesn't say whether California proscribed it, though.

1976
Amendment to Therapeutic Abortion Act: Fetus born alive during the course of an abortion has the same rights to medical treatment as an infant of similar medical status prematurely born spontaneously.

Amendment to Therapeutic Abortion Act: Specifies the means of disposal for fetal remains shall be internment or incineration.

So if this story really happened, perhaps laws were broken. The law about termination of viable fetuses, if there was one, and the law about medical care for fetuses born in the course of an abortion (she claims she was born and then after a few hours they sent her to the hospital).

 

[ysabella]

Ah, wait, also this:

1967
California Therapeutic Abortion Act enacted. Allows a physicians' committee to approve abortions in cases where there is substantial risk that continuance of the pregnancy would gravely impair the physical or mental health of the woman, and in cases of rape and incest. Requires all abortions to be performed in accredited hospitals. Prohibits abortions after 20 weeks gestation. Also, causes Penal Code sections on abortion to be amended to exempt abortions which are in compliance with this act. (bolding mine)

So that would have stood, after Roe v. Wade. Therefore, a 7 1/2 month abortion was illegal in California at the time.

So, this alleged abortion would have been illegal, and this chick's claim that the 'abortionist' would have killed her after she was born alive is not likely since it would have been illegal for him/her to do that.

 

[sophia8]

Thanks for digging that up, Y. I looked for the info, but just got lost.
Jessen was booked to peak at a Parliamentary commitee meeting on the 6th December, but I've not been able to find a report on it. She's also booked to run in the London Marathon next year and is busy collecting sponsorships.
I still haven't been able to find any indication of how she makes a living, apart from speaking fees and the like: like Kaz, she is evidently a professional "testimonialist'.
She has a new website:www.giannajessen.com, so new that only the front page is up. Maybe it's unfair to criticise a site that's under construction, but I find it highly ironic that a personal site for an allegedly disabled person should fail all accessibility rules.

 

[sophia8]

I've found a detailed description of how a saline abortion works here: http://pub30.bravenet.com/forum/2550469328/fetch/33693/

Amniotic Fluid is already 0.9% saline. Injecting potassium into an adult vein will cause death because the blood electrolytes will be disrupted. In exactly the same way injecting a 2% saline solution into the amniotic fluid will cause the death of the fetus in a few minutes because the heart requires a very specific chemistry to function. This 2% solution is also in contact with the interior of the uterus and we can infer during removal of the fetus with the vaginal areas of the woman involved. These areas - as all women will attest, are quite sensitive and delicate. They still won't be burned.
To recap: If you seriusly change the electrolytic balance you will kill any organism or developing organism, and since it is very easy and cheap and available a 2% saline solution is used in an amniocentesis abortion. It doesn't burn the person who prepares it, or the woman into whom it is injected, or the fetus. It doesn't need to. It can attain it's objective without any need to burn.

So Jessen's story of her 'abortion' is even more of a nonsense - a saline injection would have killed her within minutes, without any burning.

The whole story of the abortion appears to have come from her biological mother - or, at least, an anonymous woman claiming to be her mother: http://members.tripod.com/~joseromia/gianna.html

I've found all this from just googling - so when is an investigative reporter going to get onto this story?

(Edit to fix quotes)

 

[sophia8]

I've suggested in a few places that somebody whould investigate this woman and her claims Nobody appears to be particularly interested in the job, so I suppose I had better do an RL Lancaster and give it a go myself.
So as not to clutter up this forum, I've created a blog: http://sophiaeight.blogspot.com/. There's only one post in it so far, and I'm going to be hellishily busy for the next few days, so it might be some time before i update it. However, I will be posting any further bits of Jessen-related info there, as soon as it comes in.
I'm deliberately staying anonymous with this project. In my trawls through the anti-abortion websites, I've been shocked to the core by the fanatical hatred displayed by those who call themselves "pro-life". Some sites are dripping with venomous threats against anyone who opposes their views - and they search out and freely publish info about "enemies".
I've already been flamed as a "baby-murderer" for daring to post my doubts about Jessen on an anti-abortion site - even though I was careful not to say anything at all about my stance on abortion. I have loved ones. I don't have life insurance. I don't even have house insurance. I do not want my name and address on one of those lists.

 

[casebro]

Amniotic Fluid is already 0.9% saline. Injecting potassium into an adult vein will cause death because the blood electrolytes will be disrupted. In exactly the same way injecting a 2% saline solution into the amniotic fluid will cause the death of the fetus in a few minutes because the heart requires a very specific chemistry to function. This 2% solution is also in contact with the interior of the uterus and we can infer during removal of the fetus with the vaginal areas of the woman involved. These areas - as all women will attest, are quite sensitive and delicate. They still won't be burned.
To recap: If you seriusly change the electrolytic balance you will kill any organism or developing organism, and since it is very easy and cheap and available a 2% saline solution is used in an amniocentesis abortion. It doesn't burn the person who prepares it, or the woman into whom it is injected, or the fetus. It doesn't need to. It can attain it's objective without any need to burn. Amniotic Fluid is already 0.9% saline. Injecting potassium into an adult vein will cause death because the blood electrolytes will be disrupted. In exactly the same way injecting a 2% saline solution into the amniotic fluid will cause the death of the fetus in a few minutes because the heart requires a very specific chemistry to function. This 2% solution is also in contact with the interior of the uterus and we can infer during removal of the fetus with the vaginal areas of the woman involved. These areas - as all women will attest, are quite sensitive and delicate. They still won't be burned.
To recap: If you seriusly change the electrolytic balance you will kill any organism or developing organism, and since it is very easy and cheap and available a 2% saline solution is used in an amniocentesis abortion. It doesn't burn the person who prepares it, or the woman into whom it is injected, or the fetus. It doesn't need to. It can attain it's objective without any need to burn. "

Yes but there must to be limits on the effectiveness of killing more mature bodies. Sea water is 4% salt, and it hasn't killed me yet inspite of being fully submerged for hours at a time. I could see that a near-term fetus with real skin would be more likely to suvive than a sprout without fully developed skin.

It is not unknown for a pregnant woman to lie about her date of conception, if she knows that otherwise the Dr. won't do the abotion. But, mature skin would also protect against burning, and eliminate CP as a symptom.

 

[ysabella]

Again, the fetus is covered with vernix caseosa, aka vernix, starting in around the 5th month. That is a thick waxy coating all over the skin, held in place by the lanugo (the fine hairs on the fetus's skin), which protects the skin from the amniotic fluid. So the skin isn't really the issue, or the mechanism, at hand here.

 

[The Don]

She made an appearance on the BBC this morning. She's telling the same story. 5 minutes of anti-choice propoganda and not a word by way of contradiction

 

[sophia8]

She made an appearance on the BBC this morning. She's telling the same story. 5 minutes of anti-choice propoganda and not a word by way of contradiction

Sheesh. Missed that. She's running in the London Marathon this Sunday, so she'll be all over the media.
I've taken down the blog I started about her - couldn't fnd any new information. I may restart it now though.
Every appearance she makes, she trots out exactly the same speech, pretty much word for word. She has nothing new to say at all. Yet people are still paying to listen to her.
There must be some people in the pro-life movement who have the intelligence to see how this woman is ultimately damaging to their cause; some day, somebody will come along with a debunking that will blow her credibility completely, along with the credibility of every pro-lifer who has ever supported her.
That was the message I tried to put across in the anti-abortion forums. But, as I said, I got called a baby-killer for my troubles.

 

[The Don]

In my opinion no-one will ever challenge her on her story. This is because she is a presentable and seemingly likeable young lady. All she would have to do is to burst into tears and say something like "why do you hate me ?" to make the person putting the opposing view look like a complete heel.

The only way you could attack her is to address her motives and not even to address the story in any way.

 

[Cylinder]

Oh, never mind. I see it. She meant he wasn't there, but hours later he signed her birth certificate. How long after a birth do they generally do that? I thought it was as soon as they washed their hands.

Oh no - it is done hours post partum if not days after the mother has recovered and the name has been decided. My daughter Julian's birth record (the certificate is issued by the state and takes weeks) was finalized the morning after her birth. She was born at 9:03 PM so it was close to 12 hours until our part of the paperwork was done. We were not with her doctor when he signed it.