The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread

[acbytesla]

My first thought on this is:

We should get an office pool going here at ISF to see how many of these covidiots get deathly ill and die over the next 4-6 weeks. The person who guesses the closest, wins.

Do thoughts like these make me an evil, uncaring, vengeful, hateful person (read: spawn of Trump)?

The real problem are the people they pass the virus on to.

The GOP is now taking the stand that they don't care. 5 percent of the population are going to die. We're just going to have to live with . Or die with it.

 

[KDLarsen]

Has this been linked yet? The Obama White House playbook for high-consequence emerging infectous disease threats and biological incidents, ie. the book that neither trump nor McConnell knew the existance of.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6819258-Playbook.html

Edit: Though I know see McConnell has told Fox News that he made a mistake(!) and was wrong(!!) about the existance of said book.

 

[newyorkguy]

...Hospitalizations and deaths are down, and have been reducing for more than two weeks...

I posted several attachments below which shows, yes you're right, hospitalizations are down. The death rate, however, is not. Maybe just the past few days but not two weeks. You made that claim previously but the death rate in Arizona continues to dip and spike. In fact, on the Arizona DHS website it is written that the death total for today was 30. If that's accurate that would be the highest one-day total so far. New cases are way up in May and continue to dip and spike. The chart also notes new cases may take 4-7 days to be counted.

I don't see how anyone can look at this and be comfortable with relaxing the restrictions. I can understand wanting to relax the restrictions, we all do, but this is the worst public health crisis we've had in decades and it's prudent to exercise caution. There is a real danger the epidemic can get out of control if states relax restrictions too soon. Public health officials have said this over and over.

By the way, the guidelines you're referring to are, I think, not from CDC but from the White House. trump rejected CDC's guidelines the other day.

 

[Ulf Nereng]

Has this been linked yet? The Obama White House playbook for high-consequence emerging infectous disease threats and biological incidents, ie. the book that neither trump nor McConnell knew the existance of.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6819258-Playbook.html

Edit: Though I know see McConnell has told Fox News that he made a mistake(!) and was wrong(!!) about the existance of said book.

I downloaded the document to my computer earlier today, just in case it should mysteriously vanish!

 

[Meadmaker]

The testimony of Rick Bright is just mind boggling. In January, people are saying, "We need N95 masks", and the response is …...crickets. They banned Chinese people coming into the US, and that's it.

That's the part I would just love to get a response from anyone who thinks Trump did a good, or even adequate, job on. They imposed travel restrictions. Ok. Great. Good idea, in my opinion. That means they had to know that bad stuff was on the way. So, what did they do?

Apparently, it didn't involve making masks. Two months later, he activated the Defense Production Act. Good idea. Certainly no harm done. But....if that was a good idea in March (late March, if I recall), why would it not have been a good idea in January, when Rick Bright was telling them, "We need more masks". It's stunning incompetence.

But now we have Operation Warp Speed. Good. We need that kind of commitment. Of course, we needed it in January. But damn they were quick to pass a stimulus package. They jumped on that right away, didn't they? It took them til April to get serious about that other stuff, and there's still trouble with supply chains, but when the stock market slid, they were on it.

 

[Ulf Nereng]

I posted several attachments below which shows, yes you're right, hospitalizations are down. The death rate, however, is not. Maybe just the past few days but not two weeks. You made that claim previously but the death rate in Arizona continues to dip and spike. In fact, on the Arizona DHS website it is written that the death total for today was 30. If that's accurate that would be the highest one-day total so far. New cases are way up in May and continue to dip and spike. The chart also notes new cases may take 4-7 days to be counted.

I don't see how anyone can look at this and be comfortable with relaxing the restrictions. I can understand wanting to relax the restrictions, we all do, but this is the worst public health crisis we've had in decades and it's prudent to exercise caution. There is a real danger the epidemic can get out of control if states relax restrictions too soon. Public health officials have said this over and over.

By the way, the guidelines you're referring to are, I think, not from CDC but from the White House. trump rejected CDC's guidelines the other day.

What i get from that is that AZ is at best on the plateau, which is sloping gently downwards. Do they now have the ability to test and trace new infections?

USA's total numbers have been going down lately, but that is clearly because NY and NJ's numbers have dropped sharply. The rest of USA not so much, in fact some states are on the upward curve.

So the question is: "How many lives is it acceptable to sacrifice on the holy altar of The Economy"? 250000? One million? Two? It's an ethical question, so maybe we should ask the evangelicals!

 

[Horatius]

The testimony of Rick Bright is just mind boggling. In January, people are saying, "We need N95 masks", and the response is …...crickets. They banned Chinese people coming into the US, and that's it.

That's the part I would just love to get a response from anyone who thinks Trump did a good, or even adequate, job on. They imposed travel restrictions. Ok. Great. Good idea, in my opinion. That means they had to know that bad stuff was on the way. So, what did they do?

Yep. "Wasted months and wasted lives" should be the theme of a whole lot of anti-Trump ads in the coming months. The whole point of a travel ban is to slow the spread of the disease, to give you time to ramp up preparations for dealing with a pandemic. To ban travel, and then just sit around doing absolutely nothing else is the stupidest thing Trump has done, bar none.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The testimony of Rick Bright is just mind boggling. In January, people are saying, "We need N95 masks", and the response is …...crickets. They banned Chinese people coming into the US, and that's it.

That's the part I would just love to get a response from anyone who thinks Trump did a good, or even adequate, job on. They imposed travel restrictions. Ok. Great. Good idea, in my opinion. That means they had to know that bad stuff was on the way. So, what did they do?

Apparently, it didn't involve making masks. Two months later, he activated the Defense Production Act. Good idea. Certainly no harm done. But....if that was a good idea in March (late March, if I recall), why would it not have been a good idea in January, when Rick Bright was telling them, "We need more masks". It's stunning incompetence.

But now we have Operation Warp Speed. Good. We need that kind of commitment. Of course, we needed it in January. But damn they were quick to pass a stimulus package. They jumped on that right away, didn't they? It took them til April to get serious about that other stuff, and there's still trouble with supply chains, but when the stock market slid, they were on it.

Republican Walden is trying to make Bright at fault for Trump's inaction. He even said, "Why didn't you come to this committee?" Bright is a friggin' whistleblower.

Two other Republicans are still trying to sell Trump's hydroxychloroquine cure and are trying to fault Bright for insisting it be used under close physician supervision. One of them tried to accuse Bright of only being against the drug because of Bright's dislike of Trump.

Even now when the evidence is clear, not only is the drug not useful, it causes a greater risk of heart disease, the NIH is still starting a new study of hydroxychloroquine.

 

[Meadmaker]

Republican Walden is trying to make Bright at fault for Trump's inaction. He even said, "Why didn't you come to this committee?" Bright is a friggin' whistleblower.

Two other Republicans are still trying to sell Trump's hydroxychloroquine cure and are trying to fault Bright for insisting it be used under close physician supervision. One of them tried to accuse Bright of only being against the drug because of Bright's dislike of Trump.

Even now when the evidence is clear, not only is the drug not useful, it causes a greater risk of heart disease, the NIH is still starting a new study of hydroxychloroquine.

As has been said, so often, you can't make this stuff up.

 

[Meadmaker]

Is there a glimmer of hope?

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pu..._gop_should_nominate_someone_other_than_trump

23% of Republicans in a poll says the GOP should dump Trump as nominee.

Realistically, there's no glimmer of hope. It's the kind of question likely to inflate positive answers, but still, it at least makes me think that some Republicans are at least thinking.

 

[newyorkguy]

What i get from that is that AZ is at best on the plateau, which is sloping gently downwards. Do they now have the ability to test and trace new infections?...

I don't see Arizona on a plateau except for hospitalizations. But I consider hospitalizations one of the least valuable metrics to determine whether the disease is being brought under control. People I know in New York who were extremely sick chose not to go to a hospital unless or until they developed trouble breathing. Because there is no effective treatment for coronavirus what is the hospital going to do besides monitor patients and treat their symptoms. Two women I met said they decided they'd be more comfortable at home so long as they were able to breathe okay. If someone develops difficulty breathing then they need to get to a hospital right away.

Two other people I know of were tested at a hospital. They were positive but with mild symptoms. They were not admitted. I'm sure these are very common outcomes.

Is Arizona doing contact tracing? Apparently they are on a per-county basis but the larger counties are having trouble finding enough people to do the work.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I don't see Arizona on a plateau except for hospitalizations. But I consider hospitalizations one of the least valuable metrics to determine whether the disease is being brought under control. People I know in New York who were extremely sick chose not to go to a hospital unless or until they developed trouble breathing. Because there is no effective treatment for coronavirus what is the hospital going to do besides monitor patients and treat their symptoms. Two women I met said they decided they'd be more comfortable at home so long as they were able to breathe okay. If someone develops difficulty breathing then they need to get to a hospital right away.

Two other people I know of were tested at a hospital. They were positive but with mild symptoms. They were not admitted. I'm sure these are very common outcomes.

Is Arizona doing contact tracing? Apparently they are on a per-county basis but the larger counties are having trouble finding enough people to do the work.

Your comment about hospitals gets to the question of what we are supposed to be doing. The message was to flatten the curve to prevent hospital rationing. In that sense, Arizona is doing pretty good under that metric? More people could be allowed to get infected and hospitalized?

 

[Susheel]

I am sorry, but wouldn't the indices for hospitalisation automatically flatten out as they reach capacity? After all, there are only a limited number of available beds. And considering that Covid is not the only ailment they have to deal with, how reliable are those numbers in determining the rate of infection?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I am sorry, but wouldn't the indices for hospitalisation automatically flatten out as they reach capacity? After all, there are only a limited number of available beds. And considering that Covid is not the only ailment they have to deal with, how reliable are those numbers in determining the rate of infection?

Beds is not the limiting resource.

Many areas canceled all non-emergency care. Entire departments are re-tasked to fulfill radiology processing, administrative tasks, and other support functions. There are only so many registered CCNs and they spend every moment chasing crash calls, running dialysis, clearing blockages in tubes, and watching hopelessly as another patient's oxygen saturation declines and vitals start slipping away.

 

[acbytesla]

I want to touch on something that drives me crazy. It's people who talk about the medical issues as if they truly understand them. I went into Lowes today and overheard this clerk telling another clerk how the stay at home orders were unconstitutional and how because Covid19 was a virus, it was impossible for their even to be a vaccine.

There's a lot I don't know about this, but one thing I knew for sure was this kid never studied con-law and didn't know medicine either.

I have been listening to expert after expert talking about this virus and what should be done and I'm convinced that even the experts are unsure. So it drives me crazy to hear not only the ignorant but medically uneducated ramble on.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Beds is not the limiting resource.

Many areas canceled all non-emergency care. Entire departments are re-tasked to fulfill radiology processing, administrative tasks, and other support functions. There are only so many registered CCNs and they spend every moment chasing crash calls, running dialysis, clearing blockages in tubes, and watching hopelessly as another patient's oxygen saturation declines and vitals start slipping away.

If that is the limiting resource, then I will wait for departments of health to report their measurements of that resource. Decision making should be limited to what can be known.

 

[a_unique_person]

The testimony of Rick Bright is just mind boggling. In January, people are saying, "We need N95 masks", and the response is …...crickets. They banned Chinese people coming into the US, and that's it.

That's the part I would just love to get a response from anyone who thinks Trump did a good, or even adequate, job on. They imposed travel restrictions. Ok. Great. Good idea, in my opinion. That means they had to know that bad stuff was on the way. So, what did they do?

Apparently, it didn't involve making masks. Two months later, he activated the Defense Production Act. Good idea. Certainly no harm done. But....if that was a good idea in March (late March, if I recall), why would it not have been a good idea in January, when Rick Bright was telling them, "We need more masks". It's stunning incompetence.

But now we have Operation Warp Speed. Good. We need that kind of commitment. Of course, we needed it in January. But damn they were quick to pass a stimulus package. They jumped on that right away, didn't they? It took them til April to get serious about that other stuff, and there's still trouble with supply chains, but when the stock market slid, they were on it.

He does pronounce China in a funny way, so I guess that's something.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Your comment about hospitals gets to the question of what we are supposed to be doing. The message was to flatten the curve to prevent hospital rationing.

Who's message?

BTW Arizona's curve is not flat, it is increasing geometrically. This is what happens when the virus isn't contained.

More people could be allowed to get infected and hospitalized?

Sure they could, but a large proportion of those who are hospitalized will die, and those who 'recover' won't necessarily return to good health. If the only goal is to prevent hospital rationing then potentially everyone eventually gets the virus, hospitals are stretched to the limit for years, 20% of the population is hospitalized at some point and 10% die of Covid-19. Who pays for that?

In that sense, Arizona is doing pretty good under that metric?

With cases still increasing geometrically, saying they are doing 'pretty good' is like jumping off a 100 story building and saying you are doing 'pretty good' as you pass the 97th floor because your speed is only 27mph.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

"Flatten the Curve" was a trendy hashtag and some officials latched onto it just hoping to get some momentum in the right direction.

"Hammer and Dance" is what was/is needed.

 

[The Don]

"Flatten the Curve" was a trendy hashtag and some officials latched onto it just hoping to get some momentum in the right direction.

"Hammer and Dance" is what was/is needed.

You're right, but Hammer and Dance requires long-term action and commitment which is incompatible with a lazy Administration and a November election.

Flattening the curve can give a quick conclusion and any negative consequences will likely happen after the election and are in the box marked "later" and/or are someone else's problem.