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If I was stopping to look at a site (which I do without a second thought) and got confronted by a bunch of rednecks with a shotgun, I can ever so solemnly swear that I would assume they intended to kill me and react accordingly. No ifs, ands or buts. No discussion. I don't care what they say they are doing. What they are doing is a naked aggravated assault and my white ass is going in self preservation at all costs mode.

Good luck with that, I hope it turns out better than it did for Mr. Arbery.

Keep in mind he had behaved in a way indicating he found his own behavior suspicious before the guys with guns showed up.

As for me, if I’m ever in that situation I’m going to de-escalate using my words.
 
I suppose we will hear more as the evidence unfolds.

To me it sounds more like two morons with guns who have seen too many action films and end up killing someone.

I don't know about the law in Georgia, but around here that would constitute a crime.
 
Of course if they weren't morons then they deliberately killed the guy.
 
Can you explain in what way this is not true?

This entire thread is filled with 95% people who believe blacks are second class citizens. The entire BLM movement, nearly every prominent black or liberal voice of any kind asserts that blacks are second class citizens constantly.

There's quite a clever piece of equivocation going on here. The poster, who clearly believes that black people are second-class in the manner in which they discharge the responsibilities of citizenship, is deliberately conflating this with the complaint often made by black people and by people who are not overtly racist, which is that black people are treated as if they were second class citizens with respect to the rights they are accorded by virtue of their citizenship. To treat these two assertions as identical is a lie, however subtle; and I think that rather than complaining about who has a platform here, it's more constructive to deconstruct the lies that platform is used to disseminate.

Dave
 
There's quite a clever piece of equivocation going on here. The poster, who clearly believes that black people are second-class in the manner in which they discharge the responsibilities of citizenship, is deliberately conflating this with the complaint often made by black people and by people who are not overtly racist, which is that black people are treated as if they were second class citizens with respect to the rights they are accorded by virtue of their citizenship. To treat these two assertions as identical is a lie, however subtle; and I think that rather than complaining about who has a platform here, it's more constructive to deconstruct the lies that platform is used to disseminate.

Dave
I was just about to make that point, but I think you said it well enough.
 
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I am a building contractor, and can say unequivocally that people do this all the time. Arbery was doing nothing suspicious in being there, no matter how incredulous you find it.

Not to digress too far, but do you any obligation to make it hard to access your building sites? if a lookie-loo poked around your site and fell through a hole or brushed a live wire, would you have any legal liability?
 
Is everyone willing to agree that if Ahmaud was the same individual visiting that construction site in the middle of the night on several previous occasions, it looks pretty decisively like he was there for nefarious purposes?

Someone asked me where I got 3am from btw, and that was just an example - a way to indicate the middle of the night.
 
Is everyone willing to agree that if Ahmaud was the same individual visiting that construction site in the middle of the night on several previous occasions, it looks pretty decisively like he was there for nefarious purposes?

Someone asked me where I got 3am from btw, and that was just an example - a way to indicate the middle of the night.

No.

It would indicate that he was perhaps trespassing. There's no evidence Arbery ever stole anything from the construction site.
 
"Dah libruls" overuse of "the race card" does not give anyone "racism points" they can cash in to avoid being racist in a totally different discussion.
 
Not to digress too far, but do you any obligation to make it hard to access your building sites? if a lookie-loo poked around your site and fell through a hole or brushed a live wire, would you have any legal liability?

I've wandered around construction sites dozens of times. Maybe hundreds. Used to collect bent nails for straightening, and bits of wood to pound them into. Nobody ever felt it necessary to kill me for it.
 
Can you explain in what way this is not true?

This entire thread is filled with 95% people who believe blacks are second class citizens. The entire BLM movement, nearly every prominent black or liberal voice of any kind asserts that blacks are second class citizens constantly.

As for more likely to commit crimes... I mean??? Crime statistics leave no room for any sort of question there.

Once again you struggle with how stats work. Even if 100% of the crimes are committed by blacks, that doesn't mean that 100% of blacks are criminals.


Which is why you were able to go from a 33% chance to 100% certainty. Your ignorance in the application of statistics has colored your thinking.
 
Very true.
Arbery disagrees. That's why he took off running out of the building when he became aware a neighbor knew he was in there,
You are projecting motivation to someone you don't know without enough information to actually determine that motivation. It is possible he took off running because he knew he had been seen. It is also possible that he took off running in order to resumed his run. (If it were me, he started running exactly when I would have: as soon as I was outside the building. I don't walk to the street/driveway before I start.)

Granted, it can be argued that we are also projecting a racial motivation the highwaymen who ambushed him. Regardless of their biases, they had not seen him (or footage of him) committing a crime, let alone a felony, that day. So they had no legitimate cause to confront him with a displayed weapon.

and that's why he refused to have any sort of discussion or offer any sort of explanation like "oh I was just having a look around, I'm happy to explain that to the police - sorry, I didn't realize there had been thefts or that it was a big deal."

Mr. Arbery was under no obligation to explain anything to these guys. Were I him, my strategy would have been to ignore and not respond to them. I'd continue past them just as I usually do the guys panhandling outside the grocery store. If I saw they had weapons, this would reduce my inclination to have a discussion with them.
Mr. Arbery found what he was doing to be highly suspicious indeed, so much so that he probably overestimated how much legal peril he was actually in, and decided punching and grabbing at the gun of an armed man was an acceptable risk to take in an effort to evade police contact.

Let's think about this just a little bit.

Even in an open carry state like Georgia, people do not generally walk around with guns in their hands. Open carry of a handgun, for example, usually means visibly holstered or in a pocket. From what I've read, altering you state of carry by unholstering or even lifting your shirt to display the gun more prominently could be considered assault as the display is meant to be threatening. (There is a proposed law that would make this legal in Georgia.)

Getting out of a truck to "talk to" someone with a shotgun in hand would be pretty unusual. The mere display of the gun in that situation implies a threat and could already be a felony. Especially if you are holding it with your hand on the trigger as opposed to, say slung on your back.

So even in Georgia, someone approaching you with a shotgun is already an out of the ordinary situation where someone is likely to feel threatened.

Having attempted to avoid the position of the man with the gun only to find him waiting at the front of the truck, its reasonable to perceive a life and death situation where you have to quickly decide between fight and flight. either could be the wrong answer.

Now, even if the highwaymen were not racially motivated and identified an individual rather than a generic black man, race plays into these encounters because of the experiences of the black population.

As a relatively clean cut white person, for example, when I'm pulled over by the police, my worst case expectation is that the cop may be a jerk and I'll be inconvenienced for 15 minutes. My clean cut half-Mexican stepson who doesn't smoke anything (asthma and employment concerns also, he's a bit of a smoke-nazi), however, will not be surprised to have his car searched because the cop "smells marijuana." (This has actually happened.) Therefore, police officers might legitimately appear more threatening to him. Especially if he happens to know people with worse experiences.

Now, given the racial history of Georgia, two good old boys in a pick-up truck with guns might appear more life-threatening than they would to me or you. This weighs into his choice between fight and flight.

That said, I would still fear for my life if a truck pulled up ahead of me and the drive got out carrying his shotgun. That's just not normal behavior to me.


Lastly, I know I should ignore this, but it annoys me:

The crime statistic you keep referring to without sourcing. You only mention one variable: skin color. I won't dispute that there is likely a correlation. However, I bet that there are other variables that have an actual causation effect rather than just a correlation: economic factors, family or school environments, etc. When most crime comes from low income environments and most people who live in low income environments are Martians, then it is no surprise that most criminals are Martians even though being a Martian doesn't predispose you to being a criminal.

And a big one, I suspect is expectations of others. If people expect or assume you to be a criminal or a lowlife, you are probably more likely to become a criminal or lowlife. I grew up in a town of about 35,000 people. Most crime occurred in certain parts of town. The town was all white and had a crime rate similar (or slightly worse) than neighboring, more diverse, communities of similar size.

That's pretty much all I have to say on this thread, so I'll go back to lurking.
 
Is everyone willing to agree that if Ahmaud was the same individual visiting that construction site in the middle of the night on several previous occasions, it looks pretty decisively like he was there for nefarious purposes?

Someone asked me where I got 3am from btw, and that was just an example - a way to indicate the middle of the night.

Too many hypotheticals.

We all speculate on these manners, but getting into debates about what we would believe if we found out that something we think might be true is in fact true is rarely productive.

The people investigating the murder (should I say alleged murder since there hasn't been a conviction yet?) should look into what the defendants knew, and also what they thought they knew, about the victim, because it might deliver some insight into the defendants' actions on February 23. Those things may help explain their actions, and might have some effect on their guilt.

I don't want to dismiss the question entirely. I believe the allegation is worthy of investigation, as it may have played a role in what the defendants' motivations may have been.
 
That makes sense, that the dad might be the second caller, because he tells 'Travis' at the end. The caller knew the killer. Not knowing the sons street name that he just drove to is a little odd. Odder still is why the police are making the callers identities anonymous if they are the charged suspects.

I am speculating, but I suspect that the second call is from the dad, and was made while they were chasing Arbery in the truck.

I also speculate that the first call was made by someone other than one of the McMichaelses. I would guess the first call was made by the person standing in his front yard, across from the construction site.
 
Is everyone willing to agree that if Ahmaud was the same individual visiting that construction site in the middle of the night on several previous occasions, it looks pretty decisively like he was there for nefarious purposes?

Someone asked me where I got 3am from btw, and that was just an example - a way to indicate the middle of the night.

Oh Jesus Cow Tipping Christ!

Person 'A' cannot go around killing person 'B' simply because person 'A' believes that person 'B' may have committed theft in he past.
 
Oh Jesus Cow Tipping Christ!

Person 'A' cannot go around killing person 'B' simply because person 'A' believes that person 'B' may have committed theft in he past.

Now now, that is a proud southern heritage of lynching. Really that is fun for the whole family.

Heritage not hate.
 
Not to digress too far, but do you any obligation to make it hard to access your building sites? if a lookie-loo poked around your site and fell through a hole or brushed a live wire, would you have any legal liability?

I've spoken with my lawyer about this specifically, and yes, under law in my beloved NJ USA, I am fully responsible for the safety of anyone on that site, theoretically even a burglar (precedent is back and forth on that).

To mitigate this liability, I am supposed to post No Trespassing signs. In practice, I only lock when the place is sufficiently along to have valuables in it worth stealing. It's actually difficult to steal most things, as they tend to be large and require a truck to move. Things like rolls of copper wire are normally loaded into the electrical contractor's own truck at closing time, as he doesn't want them pinched either.

As far as live wires and the like, most of us are neurotically careful about not doing such things ever. Turn off the breaker, and throw the loose end in a 50 cent electrical box and cover. I am responsible for closing off open floor areas, which I tend to do any way for when my homeowners come strolling up with their dogs and kids.
 
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No.

It would indicate that he was perhaps trespassing. There's no evidence Arbery ever stole anything from the construction site.

Tbf, middle of the night for uninvited people on an unlit site is pretty weird. It might be a little suggestive of coming to rob or vandalize. But certainly not a slam dunk, as the property in question was waterfront and it is possible to be going to see the water and just looking around while there.
 
Okay. You don't get to shoot people stealing from a construction site. You certainly don't get to shoot people the day after they were maybe stealing from a construction site. You certainly certainly don't get to shoot people because you think they might be the guy who might have stole from a construction site.

Nothing is going to get us away from the fact that the dead guy wasn't in the process of committing a felony or being any kind of direct danger when he was shot. Therefore the entire "citizens arrest right to challenge" thing is not valid, therefore nothing that directly results from it can be used as an excuse.

He was murdered.
 
Very damn strange.

I keep getting these non-drug-assisted flashbacks to Stormfront, but I'm actually in ISF.

Next up: why the KKK were right to castrate Judge Aarons...
 
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