Jogging in Georgia while black.

[Skeptic Tank]

Re: the water pipe thing, what I’ve heard is that police dispatch records for that day include a radio transmission of an officer saying they needed the utility company to come out and stop water at the house under construction because water was flowing from it toward the crime scene.

Would be quite a coincidence if the water pipes there had randomly popped on their own right around the time he was in there. Keep in mind the copper pipes were stolen much earlier on another occasion, probably by Ahmaud.

Did he try to yank PVC water pipes out? Someone said this wouldn’t make sense due to lack of value. Maybe, or maybe it was pipes we don’t see on the surveillance video we have so far, and maybe he tried at them but lost interest when water started spraying everywhere. Or maybe he wasn’t above vandalism.

Probably one of these things we’ll know the full details of a year from now and in the meantime I’ll be disparaged for raising it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Were the copper pipes, the handgun, and the $2,500 in fishing gear beamed up to the starship Enterprise?

The handgun example is hilarious to me. Dude left it outside in an unlocked truck. Literally anyone could have stolen it, and connecting it to any construction site burglaries is extremely dubious.

Literally anyone walking by would have the opportunity. It was probably one of his neighbors. Free gun, thanks!

He's lucky some kid didn't grab and and accidentally shoot himself, because leaving a gun unsecured like that is a big screw-up.

Falls pretty neatly into the stereotype of the over-armed, dim-witted vigilante.

 

[smartcooky]

They thought he was a burglar because he was prowling around a construction site. And maybe because they had seen videos of him or someone who looked like him doing so before.

The videos of him entering the building site (both the inside one and the outside one) were not released until after the shooting, so the two murderers could not have seen them.

Entering a building site is not a felony - actual first hand knowledge of a felony is required under Georgia Statutes in order for a citizen's arrest to be lawful. One of the two murderers was a ex-LEO - he would be expected to know this. The most they would have been allowed to do under the law is follow him and call the police.

They didn't just pick out some random black guy to hassle.

<snip>

A hate crime is not just prejudice that influences the crime. It is a crime specifically targeted toward that specific segment of society that makes it a hate crime.

Do you seriously believe that the outcome would have been the same if the jogger was white?

NOTE: It is the FBI who were talking about a hate crime enhancement... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/11/us/ahmaud-arbery-prosecutor-joyette-holmes.html


ETA: There is no doubt in my mind that this was nothing less than an extra-judicial execution - a lynching!

 

[Darat]

They thought he was a burglar because he was prowling around a construction site. And maybe because they had seen videos of him or someone who looked like him doing so before.
They didn't just pick out some random black guy to hassle.

...snip...

But we now know that was lies so yes they did pick him out because he was a black person, granted not truly random.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Do you seriously believe that the outcome would have been the same if the jogger was white?

Race is clearly a huge factor in this case but I can see it being hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in court in this kind of case. And depending on how the law is worded it could not be terribly applicable to the more easily provable unconscious bias that sees black people as a threat instead of the conscious intent to send a message to the black community. It is not an unreasonable construction of a hate crime law that does not apply to all racially motivated crimes.

 

[Darat]

They targeted him because they thought he was a burglar. Can you give me links to specific evidence otherwise?

It's in the lack of reported burglaries in the area and now we can add in the statements from the owner of the construction site, we know that the murderers lied about that.

 

[Darat]

Unless they find some additional evidence, I think it's going to be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this crime was primarily motivated on targeting Arbery because of his race.

Compare this case to other successful hate crime prosecutions and you'll notice a stark difference.

That isn't the test for a "hate crime". In this instance it would be on why they they targeted him and if his race had anything to do with that. Remember they said it was because he was a burglar and they identified him from video. That video doesn't exist and we now know he wasn't a burglar. So what did they target him on? The facts show it was because he was a black person they'd seen around their neighbourhood.

I really do think it would be easy to show how race was an aggravating factor and therefore it becomes a "hate crime".

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Race is clearly a huge factor in the reactions to the case happening now, in the controversy around it, but what evidence is there that race played any part in the event itself? I don't really see any.

Other than that Ahmaud was behaving in a highly stereotypical fashion, of course.

 

[Darat]

Race is clearly a huge factor in this case but I can see it being hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in court in this kind of case. And depending on how the law is worded it could not be terribly applicable to the more easily provable unconscious bias that sees black people as a threat instead of the conscious intent to send a message to the black community. It is not an unreasonable construction of a hate crime law that does not apply to all racially motivated crimes.

I was mulling this over, whether it would be better to just go with the straight murder charges or also tie in a "hate crime" as well.

On balance I do think they should bring in the possibility of it being a hate crime as a matter of it "being in the public interest".

 

[Darat]

Race is clearly a huge factor in the reactions to the case happening now, in the controversy around it, but what evidence is there that race played any part in the event itself? I don't really see any.

Other than that Ahmaud was behaving in a highly stereotypical fashion, of course.

Remember we know there were no series of robberies/burglaries, the construction site had never had any thefts, the owner had never released any videos and so on, so all those "reasons" that they gave for targeting their victim were lies. That means we can discount those from their statements, therefore from their statements we are left with the only reason they gave - which is that he was a black man they'd previously seen in their neighbourhood.

 

[Darat]

Were the copper pipes, the handgun, and the $2,500 in fishing gear beamed up to the starship Enterprise?

Evidence?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Remember we know there were no series of robberies/burglaries, the construction site had never had any thefts, the owner had never released any videos and so on, so all those "reasons" that they gave for targeting their victim were lies. That means we can discount those from their statements, therefore from their statements we are left with the only reason they gave - which is that he was a black man they'd previously seen in their neighbourhood.

You're missing some factors and possibilities here:

1.) Mr. English was misunderstood by the media he spoke with and was in fact saying "I'd never had any burglaries here PRIOR TO THIS"

2.) He is intimidated by all the attention and the armed black panthers outside his house there, all the talk of racism, the international attention, and he's clamming up / downplaying / lying now. He may very well have an attorney telling him "yeah you'll probably have to be a witness at trial but in the meantime, no reason to draw heat from the media just downplay it all. This will all come out at trial. Protect yourself right now and just get the attention off you."

3.) We don't know for a certainty what all the McMichaels were aware of and how they were aware of it yet. Mr. English might've been telling them more than he's letting on now, or maybe they were in communication with a neighbor who lived closer to Mr. English's lot, or they knew some of the people actually building the place for him if he was using other contractors, etc. They may have come over when the place was more actively being worked on and spoken with the crew and been told about stuff which had gone missing.

4.) We know Mr. English initially told media about $2,500 in fishing gear in that boat we see in earlier footage going missing. We know he mentioned getting the cameras in response to this and to copper pipe going missing.

5.) There may have been times where Ahmaud and/or his friends visited looking for stuff to steal, didn't find anything, and departed. They may also have sometimes stolen things in areas of the building which weren't covered by camera.

6.) There may be other incidents around the neighborhood we don't know about yet, maybe even other cameras were involved. Maybe the footage from some of them is no longer saved and available, or maybe it is - if these exist at all. Hard to say. We know there was hesitance in what footage we do have being released because people were saying it couldn't positively be tied to this case, couldn't firmly establish it was Ahmaud in the footage, etc. Now there's also the factor of fear about running afoul of the mob.

7.) It may be that the majority of things which happened there didn't ever get reported and generate a police report because a lot of times with theft done in the night like that, there's just no leads and no point.

A lot of unknowns still. I wouldn't get too zealous yet about some of what you're saying.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

My snip removes all the parts of your post for which there is either no evidence for or evidence that contradicts what you posted.

You literally are left with nothing beyond you thinking he should have been treated as suspicious because he was black and he killed himself by attacking someone harassing him with a lethal weapon.

 

[dejudge]

My snip removes all the parts of your post for which there is either no evidence for or evidence that contradicts what you posted.

You literally are left with nothing beyond you thinking he should have been treated as suspicious because he was black and he killed himself by attacking someone harassing him with a lethal weapon.

The Police also reported no breaking in the area from January to February 23 . 2020 the day the jogger was murdered.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

You guys are going to hang your hat on lack of official police reports only to sit here a year from now as 5 witnesses in a row sit on the stand describing a string of things being stolen around that neighborhood.

That's my prediction.

 

[Garb]

You guys are going to hang your hat on lack of official police reports only to sit here a year from now as 5 witnesses in a row sit on the stand describing a string of things being stolen around that neighborhood.

That's my prediction.

Of course that is your prediction.

None of it will even matter unless the assailants actually witnessed him committing any of these crimes.

 

[Meadmaker]

Re: the water pipe thing, what I’ve heard is that police dispatch records for that day include a radio transmission of an officer saying they needed the utility company to come out and stop water at the house under construction because water was flowing from it toward the crime scene.

Would be quite a coincidence if the water pipes there had randomly popped on their own right around the time he was in there. Keep in mind the copper pipes were stolen much earlier on another occasion, probably by Ahmaud.

Did he try to yank PVC water pipes out? Someone said this wouldn’t make sense due to lack of value. Maybe, or maybe it was pipes we don’t see on the surveillance video we have so far, and maybe he tried at them but lost interest when water started spraying everywhere. Or maybe he wasn’t above vandalism.

Probably one of these things we’ll know the full details of a year from now and in the meantime I’ll be disparaged for raising it.

On the video, he ran a long way before getting to the pickup truck. So, water flowed from the house to the crime scene?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

On the video, he ran a long way before getting to the pickup truck. So, water flowed from the house to the crime scene?

I don't know the details or if this is even true, but it could be that as they were blocking off the street for their investigation they saw this happening - maybe as a neighbor was pointing out that this was the house he'd been in, they saw the water issue, and called it in.

Maybe they were implying it might compromise the scene, maybe they were just describing the direction of flow for informational purpose. No idea.

Just relaying what I've heard.

Re: your point, he apparently turned around at one point so maybe where he ends up dying isn't too far from the house. Dunno.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I don't know the details or if this is even true, but it could be that as they were blocking off the street for their investigation they saw this happening - maybe as a neighbor was pointing out that this was the house he'd been in, they saw the water issue, and called it in.

Maybe they were implying it might compromise the scene, maybe they were just describing the direction of flow for informational purpose. No idea.

Just relaying what I've heard.

Re: your point, he apparently turned around at one point so maybe where he ends up dying isn't too far from the house. Dunno.

First a phantom hammer, now some stolen pipes and free-flowing water.

It's getting a bit crowded on the grassy knoll.

The idea that there is physical evidence of Arbery committing burglary that someone escaped the attention of every police report and first-hand accounting of the killing is wishful thinking. These people's liberty depends on them being able to prove that their citizen's arrest was lawful, and you think it's plausible they have neglected to mention extremely helpful physical evidence?

Even the DA who bent over backwards to exonerate these goons makes no mentions of such exonerating evidence.

 

[Darat]

You guys are going to hang your hat on lack of official police reports only to sit here a year from now as 5 witnesses in a row sit on the stand describing a string of things being stolen around that neighborhood.

That's my prediction.

If the facts change than my opinions usually change, but don't forget that whether he was a 5 times convicted burglar, who had been burgling in the neighbourhood for years or not it does not alter what the murderers did. That remains a crime.