Presidential Greatness

Lurch said:
What things that can be attributed to Trump might rise to "greatness" a hundred years hence?

- Putting kids in cages?
- Giving billionaires a hefty tax break, at the cost of a rise in the national debt, when such 'stimulus' was absolutely unnecessary?
- Unilaterally pulling out of a successful nuclear deal with Iran, against all allies' advice?
- Standing practically alone in the world against climate change initiatives?
- "Falling in love" with just about the worst despot?
- Debasing his country by cuddling up to Putin, against his own national security advisers?
- A record of outright lies that boggles the mind?
- Accepting (illegally) help from a foreign Power to get elected?
- Stating his desire for more such (illegal) help to get re-elected?
- Constant violations of the Constitution's Emoluments Clause?
- Corrupting and perverting the DoJ by getting his desired 'Roy Cohn' in the form of Bill Barr?
- Being credibly accused of sexual assault by nearly 2 dozen women?
- The most inept response to a viral pandemic, at least in the developed world?
- And let's not forget: Getting impeached.

How many of these aspects will our great great grandkids look favorably upon?
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Defending the Russians and Saudis when US intelligence agencies showed what those countries had been doing.
 
Loss Leader said:
I find a high correlation for presidential ranking with unexpected events that turned out well or poorly. For example, Hoover was a pretty hard-working policy wonk (unlike his two idiot predecessors). However, he gets hit with the Great Depression and he gets the blame and loses. Wilson, on the other hand, had to be dragged kicking and screaming into WWI. But, since that turned out pretty good for us, he gets the credit. Wilson is 11 from the top, Hoover is 9 from the bottom.

The question remains as to how much each man, as president, has to do with the outcome of huge world events. Were they swept by the tides of history, or did they steer the nation over said tides? I don't know.

When it comes to Trump, I think historians will judge him on how well the Covid19 pandemic turned out for the nation. If we create new policies for social interaction and tracing, innovate new technologies for testing and monitoring other possible threats, and establish a new normal of more work from home, smaller office spaces, more green spaces (after we tear down the unused offices), and crazy, new medical procedures with robotic leaches and whatever - if we do all that, Trump, for all his obvious faults, may climb out of the basement given enough time.
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While I agree that the events outside their control often dictate how we measure this. And that can be unfair, but I disagree entirely with your assessment of Hoover although I do believe Wilson was overrated. Hoover may have been a wonk but his decisions were all wrong. They included tariffs signing the Smoot Hawley Act as well as tightening the belt when the opposite was needed.

I also in my wildest imagination cannot believe that historians will ever view Trump favoably. Trump couldn't have handled the COVID pandemic worse than he has. He has just as he has done with everything else made it about him.

He has lied non-stop. He called the virus a hoax. He contradicted his own experts over and over again. Instead of working to unite the country he has done his best to divide the country. He attacked the last Republican President after Bush called on our leaders to put partisanship aside.

The administration isn't even talking to Congress. Trump has proven himself to be corrupt beyond belief. He was impeached and I see him desperately trying to destroy our democracy.

Trump can hardly read and spends his days watching TV and then goes on tweet storms.

Trump was the wrong man at the wrong time.
 
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Loss Leader said:
I think Reagan gets a lot of credit for things he really had nothing to do with. The end of the Cold War was coming because, unknown to us, the USSR didn't have the money to compete with America anymore. It was coming because western TV had penetrated into eastern bloc countries and their citizens saw the lifestyle westerners were living.

The economy was on the upswing and that had very little to do with Reagan. Deregulation certainly helped but it was just a time of prosperity, one that started before he took office and continued at least part of the way through GHWB's term.

The only way Reagan was great, in my opinion, is that he unified the Republican party for a long time. He bound the social conservatives with the fiscal conservatives with some wealthy Jews who wanted stronger protections for Israel under his "big tent." That unity lasts to this day - even as all those groups have been given plenty of reasons to despise the others. That was his greatest accomplishment.

I would personally rate him a little above average.
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From an outsider's viewpoint, Ronnie Raygun was barely more than a nodding dog with a voice-box. It seemed questionable as to whether he understood what was going on around him most of the time. I seem to recall the most vexatious issue he had was hair-dye: yes or no.

So as to his policies, for good or ill, these were more than likely the product of politicians, lobbyists, spin-doctors and diplomats who worked facelessly behind the curtains, not Ronnie himself. He was about as responsible for them as I was. In short, he was a harmless and personable sock-puppet most of the time he was president.
 
Norman Alexander said:
From an outsider's viewpoint, Ronnie Raygun was barely more than a nodding dog with a voice-box. It seemed questionable as to whether he understood what was going on around him most of the time. I seem to recall the most vexatious issue he had was hair-dye: yes or no.

So as to his policies, for good or ill, these were more than likely the product of politicians, lobbyists, spin-doctors and diplomats who worked facelessly behind the curtains, not Ronnie himself. He was about as responsible for them as I was. In short, he was a harmless and personable sock-puppet most of the time he was president.
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I'm not a fan of Ronald Reagan at all. That said I believe you are being unfair. Reagan did exactly what he said he would do. His administration was well run. Perhaps what you are saying is true when you view his second term but definitely not his first.
 
acbytesla said:
I'm not a fan of Ronald Reagan at all. That said I believe you are being unfair. Reagan did exactly what he said he would do. His administration was well run. Perhaps what you are saying is true when you view his second term but definitely not his first.
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I would tend to be slightly more accurate: Other people did exactly what they told him to say he was going to do. He was an actor; he learned his lines and said them well.

I will say his administration was certainly far better run GWB, and miles out in front of the current Republican in the office.
 
For Trumpy we'll have to create a new category, or metric: Presidential G.O.A.T.ness.
 
theprestige said:
He was politically active for years before he ran for governor. Even while acting was still his main gig, he was politically active in that industry. Norman Alexander has a very weird and incomplete idea of American history and politics.
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I know. He was President of SAG twice.

I absolutely despise RR. His presidency was a terrible turning point for the GOP. From a policy perspective, Reagan was far worse than Nixon.

This is when the GOP embraced the big lie. Instead of arguing facts, Ronnie sold to America the lie that we could reduce taxes, increase military spending and balance the budget. Something anyone with a brain knew was false. That was the turning point when the GOP sold out beyond reason.

He did lower taxes,...well on the wealthy. But the fact is Reagan actually increased taxes on ordinary Americans by a staggering amount. He increased, almost doubled payroll taxes. His administration added fees to almost anything that affected the poor and middle class.

He did increase the military budget. He just blew up the budget to do it. He sold off public lands to the wealthy. And he embraced the Religious right.

But his administration was effective at doing these things.
 
acbytesla said:
While I agree that the events outside their control often dictate how we measure this. And that can be unfair, but I disagree entirely with your assessment of Hoover although I do believe Wilson was overrated. Hoover may have been a wonk but his decisions were all wrong. They included tariffs signing the Smoot Hawley Act as well as tightening the belt when the opposite was needed.
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Okay, I agree with you but: While Harding and Coolidge were disasters who cared nothing about law or the presidency, Hoover was working very hard behind the scenes to understand and shape policy. Harding didn't want much more than to see Alaska. Coolidge was more interested in a pair of chaps that had been gifted to him than in governing.

Hoover's big failing was that he failed to see Depression-era America as needing anything other than the fiscal and monetary policies that had become mainstream thinking in the pre-Depression years. We needed massive government spending, we got the same hands-off attitude of the decade before. At least he never sent the Army to seize someone else's oil field to give it to his friend.


acbytesla said:
I know. He was President of SAG twice.
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Ronald Reagan was the only union member to become president.
 
Loss Leader said:
Okay, I agree with you but: While Harding and Coolidge were disasters who cared nothing about law or the presidency, Hoover was working very hard behind the scenes to understand and shape policy. Harding didn't want much more than to see Alaska. Coolidge was more interested in a pair of chaps that had been gifted to him than in governing.

Hoover's big failing was that he failed to see Depression-era America as needing anything other than the fiscal and monetary policies that had become mainstream thinking in the pre-Depression years. We needed massive government spending, we got the same hands-off attitude of the decade before. At least he never sent the Army to seize someone else's oil field to give it to his friend.
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I'm not going to defend Coolidge or Harding.


Loss Leader said:
Ronald Reagan was the only union member to become president.
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And yet as Governor and President he was anti-union.
 
Loss Leader said:
I don't think anybody could.

In fact, I don't think anybody could put together a worse three presidents in a row than Harding, Coolidge and Hoover.
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You’re right if we limit ourselves to people who have already held office, but if we were to speculate about the future, I’m pretty sure Donald, Don Jr, and Jared could seize that title.
 
theprestige said:
All this concern about President Kushner. Why the worry? Our next three presidents could be Bartlett, Trumbull, and Dave.
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But in all seriousness, I would vote for Kevin Klein for President five times and then drive to another precinct and vote for him twelve times more.
 
theprestige said:
All this concern about President Kushner. Why the worry? Our next three presidents could be Bartlett, Trumbull, and Dave.
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Dave would be head and shoulders above what we have now!

Aw crap, ninja'd by Loss Leader. I blame him for spelling it Klein instead of the correct Kline! ;)
 
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