Jogging in Georgia while black.

[TurkeysGhost]

One of the most important things about the newer footage is that it demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt that Mr. Arbery understood himself to be a criminal who'd been caught, and these men as agents of getting in trouble, not racist KKK murderers.

This means that he knew he was in the wrong, they were in the right, and he had no plausible "I thought I was about to get murdered" excuse for "self defense."

Ironically, for all the weeping over this POS that's been going on across the world in the last week or so, Mr. Arbery himself would have a hard time recognizing this version of him which has been created. He knew what he was.

It must be very upsetting for you that the general public broadly understands that the McMichaels are backwards murderers the belong in a previous era of American history. The attempts to smear Arbery are largely failing, with the exception of the narrow subset of open racists.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

It must be very upsetting for you that the general public broadly understands that the McMichaels are backwards murderers the belong in a previous era of American history. The attempts to smear Arbery are largely failing, with the exception of the narrow subset of open racists.

Maybe. Though everything is going in a very, very predictable fashion for someone with my worldview.

Few things surprise me at this point, in our society.

I have a feeling you're in for some surprises in the next few decades, though. Upsetting surprises that conflict with your current understanding of what belongs in a previous era of American history.

 

[Craig4]

One of the most important things about the newer footage is that it demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt that Mr. Arbery understood himself to be a criminal who'd been caught, and these men as agents of getting in trouble, not racist KKK murderers.

This means that he knew he was in the wrong, they were in the right, and he had no plausible "I thought I was about to get murdered" excuse for "self defense."

Ironically, for all the weeping over this POS that's been going on across the world in the last week or so, Mr. Arbery himself would have a hard time recognizing this version of him which has been created. He knew what he was.

You mind showing where in the Georgia statute on citizen's arrest the state of mind of the person being arrested in mentioned?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Maybe. Though everything is going in a very, very predictable fashion for someone with my worldview.

Few things surprise me at this point, in our society.

I have a feeling you're in for some surprises in the next few decades, though. Upsetting surprises that conflict with your current understanding of what belongs in a previous era of American history.

No, I imagine we have very similar views on the coming conflict in the next few years.

Knowing the history of the armed right, they'll probably make the mistake of targeting civilians and federal law enforcement, as they always do, and completely undermine their own movement. Maybe another couple of Ruby Ridges and OKC bombings, followed by the unanimous backlash by the public.

But this is OT.

 

[carlitos]

It must be very upsetting for you that the general public broadly understands that the McMichaels are backwards murderers the belong in a previous era of American history. The attempts to smear Arbery are largely failing, with the exception of the narrow subset of open racists.

Given ST's parroting of their arguments and slang, we can guess where this poster gets their information - racist / white nationalist websites, youtubes and podcasts. They are so far down the rabbit hole, that they don't even realize how shocking this kind of stuff is to the general public.

 

[BobTheCoward]

One of the most important things about the newer footage is that it demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt that Mr. Arbery understood himself to be a criminal who'd been caught, and these men as agents of getting in trouble, not racist KKK murderers.

This means that he knew he was in the wrong, they were in the right, and he had no plausible "I thought I was about to get murdered" excuse for "self defense."

Ironically, for all the weeping over this POS that's been going on across the world in the last week or so, Mr. Arbery himself would have a hard time recognizing this version of him which has been created. He knew what he was.

You are confident to a level that makes you not amenable to discussion. Frankly, you should probably leave as your firmness of your position makes your participation pointless.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

I see it as a profound evil for men looking out for their community to end up in prison for years or decades on account of a miserable criminal who'd been preying upon their neighborhood for months.

...snip...

That might indeed be the case, but it has nothing to do with the scenario under discussion in this thread, in this thread we are talking about 2 (or perhaps 3) criminals who decided to undertake a criminal act whist bearing lethal weapons.

Criminals who commit crimes whilst armed with lethal weapons need to be locked up for as long as it takes for us to be reasonably certain they won't recommit their crimes.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Given ST's parroting of their arguments and slang, we can guess where this poster gets their information - racist / white nationalist websites, youtubes and podcasts. They are so far down the rabbit hole, that they don't even realize how shocking this kind of stuff is to the general public.

That's true. I sometimes forget how far I've come from where I began.

Would you believe that prior to the Trayvon Martin case, I was actually an Obama voting, softy, pacifist lefty who literally used to say we all need to just mix so there's no more racism?

100% true.

 

[quadraginta]

As an aside, I mentioned a case earlier in which person A robbed a store. During the robbery, person B, an armed bystander attempted to shoot person A. Person B missed person A, but the stray bullet struck and killed person C, another customer at the store.

Person A (the robber) was convicted of the murder of person C (the customer shot by the armed bystander).

I seem to recall a case (possibly more than one) where a pair of robbers got into an exchange of gunfire with police and one of the robbers was shot and killed by the police. His partner was tried and convicted of felony murder because he and his partner were committing a felony when the partner got shot.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Though everything is going in a very, very predictable fashion for someone with my worldview.

Well, yes. That's because you demonstrably form the narrative that you wish to believe, and then twist or invent facts in order to confirm to yourself that your narrative is true. It's a testament to your limited and flawed thinking, rather than an affirmation of your bigoted views.

 

[Leftus]

I know it's pointless and really beside any useful point anyway, but in all my years, I have found many tools, including hammers (one was a really nice leather-handled Estwing!), screwdrivers, wrenches, pliers, vise grips, pry bars, cordless drills, chisels, transit parts, bolt cutters, crimpers, cell phones, knives both cheap and very expensive, a working camera, a surprising number of wallets, and many other things, on residential roads and even well traveled city streets. People leave stuff on car roofs, under hoods, and on truck bumpers all the time.

If Skeptic Tank has not found at least one hammer by now, and if he's telling the truth, he's either young, unlucky, or unobservant.

It's still more likely that the object identified as a possible hammer was actually a stick or a squirrel or something of the sort. I've stopped many a time for things that looked from one angle like something they're not. On the other hand, since one of the salient points that keeps coming up is that there was new construction right in the area, a lost hammer is not so far-fetched.

I find a surprising number of nails and screws in my residential area that is not under any construction of any measure. I guess it's time to hunt down joggers stealing fasteners. Just to play it safe. Maybe it's those people at Firestone trying to drum up some business.

I've seen tools, buckets, ice chests fall out of the back of trucks. Random crap in the road, as you've stated, is not a sign of anything but something that wasn't properly secured.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Would you believe that prior to the Trayvon Martin case, I was actually an Obama voting, softy, pacifist lefty who literally used to say we all need to just mix so there's no more racism?

I find it plausible, although I wouldn't take your word for it. People certainly do get indoctrinated into these kinds of views, and there are people actively trying to recruit people to their cause by slowly indoctrinating.

So, yes, I would believe it. But you have a very loose affiliation with the truth, so I make no judgement on whether or not it's actually true in your specific case.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I find it plausible, although I wouldn't take your word for it. People certainly do get indoctrinated into these kinds of views, and there are people actively trying to recruit people to their cause by slowly indoctrinating.

So, yes, I would believe it. But you have a very loose affiliation with the truth, so I make no judgement on whether or not it's actually true in your specific case.

I actually don't lie on this or other message boards. Why would I?

Perhaps you're referring to my comfort level with certain types of conjecture, and that's true. But I don't lie.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I've so grown to hate the term "narrative." Reality is the story, we don't all get our own separate individual story being written on top of it.

 

[Meadmaker]

I've been wondering: if Arbery had been armed, would it have been legal for him to draw his gun when accosted by civilians holding guns? And what happens if they shoot him when he does that?

In general, if a person is in a circumstance where a reasonable person would perceive that he is in danger of death or serious bodily harm that person has a right to defend himself, including with the use of lethal force.

So, a person accosted by civilians holding guns might reasonably conclude that his life was in danger. The person accosted has a right to use lethal force in that situation. If the attackers then shoot him dead, they could attempt to claim self defense, but their self defense claim would be negated by the fact that the attackers created the situation in the first place.

There are subtleties and fine points in the law about exactly what you are allowed to do, and those might vary by jurisdiction. Ultimately, it comes down to a judgement by a prosecutor and, after that, a jury. If you were sitting on a jury, would you think that the person accosted had a reasonable fear that his life was in danger? When all is said and done, there is no algorithm that determines whether someone is guilty or innocent in every situation. At a trial, the law is described and the facts are presented. In most cases, it's fairly obvious then to determine whether the law was violated. However, sometimes there is a judgement to be made about whether the actions of the people were "reasonable" based on the circumstances.

 

[Darat]

One of the most important things about the newer footage is that it demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt that Mr. Arbery understood himself to be a criminal who'd been caught, and these men as agents of getting in trouble, not racist KKK murderers.

This means that he knew he was in the wrong, they were in the right, and he had no plausible "I thought I was about to get murdered" excuse for "self defense."

Ironically, for all the weeping over this POS that's been going on across the world in the last week or so, Mr. Arbery himself would have a hard time recognizing this version of him which has been created. He knew what he was.

I did ask you earlier but you failed to answer. What other "crimes" not prosecuted by the state are citizens allowed to summary execute a fellow citizen?

According to you so far we have trespassing.

Is that the only crime that citizens are allowed to act as prosecutor, judge and executioner or are there others?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Well the problem is if you're a minority and some tipping point of people, enough to either stack or hang a jury, think racism is a "reasonable action" you're sort of boned.

 

[Olmstead]

I don't really see that changing the legal situation at all. Arbery was in the right to try to disarm McMichael, he would have been in the right to shoot McMichael with his own shotgun during the struggle, and he would have been his legal right to produce his own firearm and defend himself against two armed attackers.

Both men have been charged with aggravated assault in addition to the murders. Unless some evidence comes forth to exonerate them of this, using lethal force to repel this armed assault would have been perfectly legal. He wouldn't have even needed to rely on a "stand your ground" defense, as the circumstances fall neatly into ordinary self defense that are widely understood in all states.

I agree, and I think this shows how stupid their armed attempt at detaining him really was. The moment they brought firearms to the equation, there was a pretty good chance the situation would escalate.

But I think some people would happily argue that Arbery drawing a gun would constitute enough of a threat to legally gun him down, while ignoring the fact that stepping into someone's path with a shotgun at the ready should constitute exactly the same kind of threat.

 

[Darat]

I've been wondering: if Arbery had been armed, would it have been legal for him to draw his gun when accosted by civilians holding guns? And what happens if they shoot him when he does that?

Assuming he was legally entitled to own a lethal weapon and have it with him then killing both the criminals would have been legally self defence in the UK.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I was thinking about how fateful it was for the neighbor who came out from the house across the street to make a big show in the front yard of calling the cops, and possibly he called out to Ahmaud to "get out of there!" or something as well. Ahmaud darts off when that neighbor comes out.

Had that man chilled out, it's possible cops could've arrived while Arbery was still inside the dwelling, and possibly caught him stealing items from in there as well.