Jogging in Georgia while black.

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bluesjnr said:
Can I just check peoples thinking here? From whatever side of the racist argument you stand, could you confirm whether you are of the opinion that Arbery was going to be shot even if he hadn't have made an attempt to wrest the shot gun from McMichael?

I ask because that seems to be a bit of a creeping narrative?
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Shoot him in cold blood? Probably not, actually I'll go so far as to say, almost certainly not.

Give me an excuse? That wouldn't surprise me.

Citizens arrest without violence and wait for the police to arrive and sort things out vs Give the perp a good beating and make sure he knows what happens if we set eyes on him again? I wouldn't have wanted to bet my well being on which side of the line the random strangers with guns fell.
 
I'm not interested in playing a game of 20 questions to "What if" us into a hypothetical situations where the two guys wouldn't have shot Arbery.

They shot him. In the real world. And that shooting was not justified. The encounter that lead to the shooting was not justified.

I'm not interested in alternative universe fan fiction.
 
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Bob001 said:
It's hard to believe that they planned to kill anybody. But they clearly thought they were catching a criminal, and I suspect they might have been thinking "just gimme an excuse."

Here's an alternative scenario: Suppose the son had left his shotgun in the truck and just asked Arbery "Could I please talk to you?" His father was standing watch with his handgun in the truck. Pointing a shotgun in somebody's face is not the way most civil conversations start.
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The law tends to see it that if you take a lethal weapon with you when committing a crime and a death occurs then you are a murderer by the the fact you took a lethal weapon even if you did not plan to kill someone. In other words the law holds you are responsible for what happens when you commit a crime.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I'm not interested in playing a game of 20 questions to "What if" us into a hypothetical situations where the two guys wouldn't have shot Arbery.

They shot him. In the real world. And that shooting was not justified. The encounter that lead to the shooting was not justified.

I'm not interested in alternative universe fan fiction.
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Thank you. It's easy to get drawn in, this should be the point.
 
bluesjnr said:
Would you argue that your repeated attempts to control the sway and pitch of opinion and your many requests not to engage are made in good faith?
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All the known racists on this forum are on my ignore list. I do my best not to be tempted to engage them, and I only see what they post when other users quote them, and then I try to only post about them to others rather than directly to them. Why do I do this? Because talking to them gives them oxygen - it validates them and can fool others into thinking their points are worthwhile addressing - it gives them air time.

No matter how much you try, no matter how many infallible, irrefutable arguments you might come up with, you will NEVER convince these racists that their position is wrong. All you do by addressing their arguments is to allow them to talk about what THEY WANT TO TALK ABOUT! That is their whole plan, the trap they set every time they post, and a whole bunch of you foolishly fall right into it, every time.
 
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Okay we get it "ignore the trolls."

How do we stop the trolls from trolling in the real world where "ignore the trolls" no longer works?

I think some people have a fundamental error in how they view "trolls." If you ignore a troll they don't magically disappear from the face the Earth, they just do something more outrageous to get attention.

That's why they elected Trump. Because we can't ignore that.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Okay we get it "ignore the trolls."

How do we stop the trolls from trolling in the real world where "ignore the trolls" no longer works?

I think some people have a fundamental error in how they view "trolls." If you ignore a troll they don't magically disappear from the face the Earth, they just do something more outrageous to get attention.

That's why they elected Trump. Because we can't ignore that.
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Let's be honest, your system elected Trump and you can't ignore that. What that has to do with this subject at hand is debatable?
 
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Darat said:
The law tends to see it that if you take a lethal weapon with you when committing a crime and a death occurs then you are a murderer by the the fact you took a lethal weapon even if you did not plan to kill someone. In other words the law holds you are responsible for what happens when you commit a crime.
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Precisely. Unless they witnessed him committing a felony, holding him at gunpoint is itself a felony. Period. That removes any legal claim of self defense even if, hypothetically, in racist fantasyland, the victim was later found to have been fleeing a scene where he himself murdered a dozen people. That one of the murderers used to be a police officer only proves that he should have known better than to even approach the guy, let alone try to apprehend him.
 
This appears to be the letter from Waycross District Attorney Barnhill to the Glynn County Police Department in which he said he was going to recuse himself and also gave their reasoning for concluding that there was "insufficient probable cause to issue arrest warrants" at the time.

There may be some both details and rationalizations here that maybe some haven't seen yet. There is some mention of the wounds as described in the autopsy report, for instance, and speculation as how they could have been inflicted.

https://georgiarecorder.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Barnhill-letter-Brunswick-shooting.pdf
 
Planigale said:
I am curious, in many parts of the world leaving a gun in an unlocked car would be a crime. I assume from this it is acceptable in Georgia to leave unsecured firearms lying around?
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Georgia currently does not penalize someone for negligently storing a firearm even if a child accesses it.
 
Babbylonian said:
Precisely. Unless they witnessed him committing a felony, holding him at gunpoint is itself a felony. Period. That removes any legal claim of self defense even if, hypothetically, in racist fantasyland, the victim was later found to have been fleeing a scene where he himself murdered a dozen people. That one of the murderers used to be a police officer only proves that he should have known better than to even approach the guy, let alone try to apprehend him.
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But this essentially puts us at a legal "If a tree falls in the forest but there is no one there to hear it..." position. Does it matter if something is obviously illegal if the prosecutors are part of the same old good ole' boy network and look at it and just go "Nope, I disagree, water isn't wet."

Honestly at this point in any sanely run system some Federal anti-lynching laws would kick in. After all "Murdering blacks people if random citizens think they are guilty of something is just hunky dory" is exactly why we have them.

Also 20 bucks on the table that the current in the pipeline Emmett Till Antilynching Act, which has already passed the House but not the Senate, gets turned into a political hot potato and the Senate either sits on it or doesn't pass it out of spite because of all of this.
 
The Definition: “Force is the application of physical techniques or tactics, chemical agents or weapons by a peace officer to another person, using the body or any object, device, or weapon, not including unresisted escorting or handcuffing a subject, nor when the subject allows him/herself to be searched or restrained.
Georgia law: ”Sheriffs and peace officers may use deadly force to apprehend a suspected felon only when the officer reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object, device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury; when the officer reasonably believes that the suspect poses an immediate threat of physical violence to the officer or others; or when there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm. Sheriffs or peace officers shall not be restricted from the use of such reasonable non-deadly force as may be necessary to apprehend and arrest a suspected felon or misdemeanant.
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from https://gapost.org/pdf_file/use_of_force_in_georgia_poag.pdf

Assuming that pointing a loaded shotgun at someone constitutes 'use of force' then according to Georgia law it would have been illegal for a police officer to point his gun at Arbery. If it's illegal for a cop to do it, shouldn't it also be illegal for a random citizen?
 
whoanellie said:
from https://gapost.org/pdf_file/use_of_force_in_georgia_poag.pdf

Assuming that pointing a loaded shotgun at someone constitutes 'use of force' then according to Georgia law it would have been illegal for a police officer to point his gun at Arbery. If it's illegal for a cop to do it, shouldn't it also be illegal for a random citizen?
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Ah, but the rules are different for "a random citizen" who used to be a cop and then worked for the prosecutor and has friends in both places. Special rules apply.
 
Don't think he should be shot even if he was a burglar, don't think a bunch of Georgia rednecks should be allowed to run around with shotguns ready, but the video from the doorbell cam is a little hard to explain.
When you stop jogging, look around to see if anyone sees you, then go into an open garage door come out and walk around the other side of the house and then when you hear sirens start jogging again, well, what are you doing?
It may be someone else in the doorbell cam video, maybe.
Still don't think he should be shot, but he may not have been so innocent.
 
kedo1981 said:
Don't think he should be shot even if he was a burglar, don't think a bunch of Georgia rednecks should be allowed to run around with shotguns ready, but the video from the doorbell cam is a little hard to explain.
When you stop jogging, look around to see if anyone sees you, then go into an open garage door come out and walk around the other side of the house and then when you hear sirens start jogging again, well, what are you doing?
It may be someone else in the doorbell cam video, maybe.
Still don't think he should be shot, but he may not have been so innocent.
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It's an open construction site in his neighborhood. He was looking around. And where do you get "sirens?" He was attacked in the street by two civilians. What sirens? And neither the police or the current prosecutor says he did anything wrong. The only people making that claim are the killers.
 
kedo1981 said:
Still don't think he should be shot, but he may not have been so innocent.
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Again this only matters if you think any crime a black person commits validates their death. Again questions of his innocence are poisoning the well. We're discussing his murder, not his trial.

Whether he was a Saint who spread love to the adorable little critters of the forest or a Sinner who spent his evenings trying fair maidens to the railroad track are not the point. The circumstances of his death were not justified.
 
Okay, I found the quoted recusal letter of Attorney General Barnhill in which he said that his son and Gregory McMichael had worked together and that both of them had even helped with the prior prosecution of Ahmaud Abery. ...who had both a juvenile and adult felony record.

My son works as an Assistant District Attorney for Jackie Johnson. Unknown to Jackie and me until about 3-4 weeks ago, he had handled a previous felony probation revocation and pleading Ahmaud Arbery to a felony in her Glynn County Office.

...

... Ahmaud, the deceased, had a juvenile and adult felony record.

In that regard, given the connection between myself and my son, and my son having worked with Greg McMichael for several years, and now known that he and Greg McMichael both helped with the previous prosecution of Arbery; I believe it is in the best interest of justice to recuse both myself and my office from this particular investigation.
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The rest of the letter is quoted in this article:

https://www.live5news.com/2020/05/07/gbi-men-charged-with-murder-ahmaud-arbery/
 
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