Jogging in Georgia while black.

[Bob001]

Can I just check peoples thinking here? From whatever side of the racist argument you stand, could you confirm whether you are of the opinion that Arbery was going to be shot even if he hadn't have made an attempt to wrest the shot gun from McMichael?

I ask because that seems to be a bit of a creeping narrative?

It's hard to believe that they planned to kill anybody. But they clearly thought they were catching a criminal, and I suspect they might have been thinking "just gimme an excuse."

Here's an alternative scenario: Suppose the son had left his shotgun in the truck and just asked Arbery "Could I please talk to you?" His father was standing watch with his handgun in the truck. Pointing a shotgun in somebody's face is not the way most civil conversations start.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I am curious, in many parts of the world leaving a gun in an unlocked car would be a crime. I assume from this it is acceptable in Georgia to leave unsecured firearms lying around?

If you let criminals steal your guns it justifies having more guns as criminals have lots of guns.

It's basic logic.

 

[Bob001]

Also possible, but seems less likely to me.

Why? Do you run? Do you know any runners?

 

[Meadmaker]

Can I just check peoples thinking here? From whatever side of the racist argument you stand, could you confirm whether you are of the opinion that Arbery was going to be shot even if he hadn't have made an attempt to wrest the shot gun from McMichael?

I ask because that seems to be a bit of a creeping narrative?

Insufficient data available. We do not know what would have happened if Arbery had taken a different course of action.


It is my opinion, not based on evidence of this situation, but of the way people act in general, that it was not the intention of the McMichaels to kill Arbery. On the other hand, it is also my opinion that the McMichaels were behaving recklessly and creating a situation likely to end up in a violent, and quite possibly fatal, confrontation. Had Arbery decided to flee the scene I think they would have pursued and I think it is at least a reasonable speculation they would have shot him.

Had he meekly raised his hands, gotten down on the ground, and awaited the arrival of the police, I think that there is a possibility that they would have seen him move in some manner, interpreted his actions as an aggressive act, and shot him.

In other words, I think Mr. Arbery's life was in danger, and Mr. Arbery knew that was the case at least from the moment that Travis McMichael pointed a shotgun at him, which was several seconds and several car lengths before Arbery engaged McMichael in a physical struggle to grab the shotgun.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

In all my many years alive, I've never just seen some hammer or something laying in a residential street. It was there because he dropped it.

Hammer? Unproven
Dropped by him? Unproven (it didn't look to me like he even went near the debris in the road)

But I once found a sixteen inch kebab knife on a footpath next to a road. I handed it in to the police but given it was actually rented from a catering supply firm and no crimes involving a small sword had been reported it was taken to be lost property rather than evidence of a crime.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

If I were a black guy in the south with Three white guys holding me at gunpoint until the police came, I might just take my chances and rush them too.

It seems like (sitting here behind my keyboard) that would definitely be a suboptimal strategy. What are you hoping to achieve by rushing a guy with a gun while his two (potentially armed) buddies are there as well. It seems like an almost 100% chance of getting shot.

Running away or standing and trying to talk may not have worked either, but there might be a chance of not getting shot with either of those approaches.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Why? Do you run? Do you know any runners?

Both. I run and I know a lot of runners.

I've never been walking, checked out a construction site, and then started my run by running directly out of the front door of the house I was inspecting. Doesn't that seem slightly odd to you?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Both. I run and I know a lot of runners.

I've never been walking, checked out a construction site, and then started my run by running directly out of the front door of the house I was inspecting. Doesn't that seem slightly odd to you?

Not "get the shotgun" odd, no.

 

[uke2se]

The only thing that's even remotely noteworthy in this discussion is who the people are who are arguing that the black man must have had it coming. All of them are right wingers. All of them are doing this to trigger the rest of us. None of them are arguing in good faith.

 

[bluesjnr]

The only thing that's even remotely noteworthy in this discussion is who the people are who are arguing that the black man must have had it coming. All of them are right wingers. All of them are doing this to trigger the rest of us. None of them are arguing in good faith.

Would you argue that your repeated attempts to control the sway and pitch of opinion and your many requests not to engage are made in good faith?

 

[quadraginta]

The only thing that's even remotely noteworthy in this discussion is who the people are who are arguing that the black man must have had it coming. All of them are right wingers. All of them are doing this to trigger the rest of us. None of them are arguing in good faith.

I have no doubt that ST is trying to trigger anyone he can. I also have no doubt that he is arguing in good faith. Every post I have ever seen of his on subjects like this demonstrates his deep and abiding belief in his abhorrent world view.

The others I am not so certain about, but they have gone beyond any 'benefit of doubt' often enough that I would need a lot of convincing to believe otherwise.

 

[JoeMorgue]

No. There is no "good faith" in the "Well maybe the black guy deserved / brought it on himself so let's wait to hear the whole story" argument in this context.

Yeah I get that this is all yet another game of "LOL let's troll the libs" but the problem is we're pretty far past the point where we can just ignore that since that mentality is now single largest political platform in the US, in charge of all three branches of government, and in no danger of going away any time real soon.

 

[uke2se]

No. There is no "good faith" in the "Well maybe the black guy deserved / brought it on himself so let's wait to hear the whole story" argument in this context.

Yeah I get that this is all yet another game of "LOL let's troll the libs" but the problem is we're pretty far past the point where we can just ignore that since that mentality is now single largest political platform in the US, in charge of all three branches of government, and in no danger of going away any time real soon.

I agree that you need to take seriously the sort of attitude displayed by the right wingers in this thread. I do not think arguing the facts of this case means taking their attitude seriously, though. The facts as we know them are clear. This was murder. They know this as well. What needs to be discussed is how to deprogram this section of the population after Trump is gone, because their attitudes won't change.

 

[p0lka]

I don't know why people are trying to argue with a person that is quite literally racist and proud of it. If the situation were reversed, and it was a white person getting killed in a neighbourhood where mostly black people live under exactly the same circumstances, he'd find a way to argue the exact opposite. In fact, he'd probably admit that he'd do that, and actually attempt to justify it. Some people are just too far gone.

Yes I agree.

The subject of your post is catching a lot with their bait, possibly loving it.

But lockdown is boring, replying to anything is better than nothing, what else is everyone supposed to do?

Treat it as mental exercise.

 

[bruto]

I know it's pointless and really beside any useful point anyway, but in all my years, I have found many tools, including hammers (one was a really nice leather-handled Estwing!), screwdrivers, wrenches, pliers, vise grips, pry bars, cordless drills, chisels, transit parts, bolt cutters, crimpers, cell phones, knives both cheap and very expensive, a working camera, a surprising number of wallets, and many other things, on residential roads and even well traveled city streets. People leave stuff on car roofs, under hoods, and on truck bumpers all the time.

If Skeptic Tank has not found at least one hammer by now, and if he's telling the truth, he's either young, unlucky, or unobservant.

It's still more likely that the object identified as a possible hammer was actually a stick or a squirrel or something of the sort. I've stopped many a time for things that looked from one angle like something they're not. On the other hand, since one of the salient points that keeps coming up is that there was new construction right in the area, a lost hammer is not so far-fetched.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay so yet again we've landed on "Well we all agree that the conservatives are impossible to talk to and are only here to troll."

*Drums my fingers on my knees*

...

...

Okay? And where do we go from here?

 

[uke2se]

Okay so yet again we've landed on "Well we all agree that the conservatives are impossible to talk to and are only here to troll."

*Drums my fingers on my knees*

...

...

Okay? And where do we go from here?

Put all the conservatives on ignore. Exclude them from the conversation. There's plenty the rest of us disagree about to ensure we still have something to talk about to pass the time. What we won't have are threads where people argue that black murder victims had it coming.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Put all the conservatives on ignore. Exclude them from the conversation. There's plenty the rest of us disagree about to ensure we still have something to talk about to pass the time. What we won't have are threads where people argue that black murder victims had it coming.

That puts us right back "Well just ignore them, it's not like are the ones running the country right now or anything" level, which I do not like.

 

[Bob001]

Okay so yet again we've landed on "Well we all agree that the conservatives are impossible to talk to and are only here to troll."
....

Let's not abuse that word "conservative." Ronald Reagan and John McCain were conservatives. Mitt Romney, Jeff Flake and John Kasich are conservatives. Trump and his blind acolytes are corrupt, racist anti-American right-wing extremists.

 

[Darat]

I freely admit it's a tense and unusual situation to be confronted by strangers with guns, even if they just have them slung down and not pointed at you. Fair point.

However, you are failing to integrate into your mindset about this case just how big of a deal the latest footage is. It confirms that he went straight from being inside this house to being confronted / tailed by these guys.

This means that even if his intentions in the house were completely pure (which of course I don't think they were) he will have had to have understood WHY they were taking an interest in him.

He knew they thought he was doing something wrong / suspicious. He did not think they were the local KKK lynch squad / murder crew.

What this means is that his decision to flee and then physically assault them was almost certainly based on his belief that he would be in deep stuff if he was still there when police arrived. Maybe he actually overestimated his legal peril, but that would appear to be the only logical motivator for what he did.

He thought he was busted, not that he was the target of a 21st century good ole' boy pickup truck lynchin' fer no reason than his skin culler!

Was that “none” than?