Biden for President?

[uke2se]

Trump has been a disaster for the US, but I honestly can say he has done much less damage on the world stage than several other presidents.

No. He has done more damage. He hasn't started any wars, but that's mostly by happenstance. He has singlehandedly turned US allies against you and propped up dictators in nations across the world. He's a corroding influence on democracy everywhere.

Bush, for all his good manners and chummy ways, was a far worse calamity than Trump on the world stage. Trump still has time to catch up, but at this rate he'll won't even come close.

Nope, Bush was better. Even with the disastrous wars he started, there was never a concerted attack on democracy that there is now.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Craftsman curses tools for hundredth time, vows to not change approach to woodworking despite repeated failure.

Are you lamenting Sanders' loss?

When do you expect your mourning period to end?

The revolution didn't happen, make the best of it instead of claiming Biden and Trump are of little difference in your mind.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

This is just whining. If you don't see this as an important election, I don't know what's wrong with you.

It's not just the most important election ever for the US, but the most important US election for the rest of the world.

This ^

 

[wareyin]

Not everyone believes in sugarcoating things. There are people who prefer the truth, even if it's unpleasant.

This would be a better zinger if the person I was talking to hadn't already resorted to making up falsehoods to smear Biden with.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Are you lamenting Sanders' loss?

When do you expect your mourning period to end?

The revolution didn't happen, make the best of it instead of claiming Biden and Trump are of little difference in your mind.

You owned that strawman, well done. It barely even seemed like it was fighting back!

 

[theprestige]

No. He has done more damage. He hasn't started any wars, but that's mostly by happenstance. He has singlehandedly turned US allies against you and propped up dictators in nations across the world. He's a corroding influence on democracy everywhere.

They said the same thing about George Bush. The truth is that the network of global alliances has remained unchanged throughout the Bush-Obama-Trump period.

As for propping up dictators... What dictators has he propped up? His positive remarks here and there have been inconsequential, and actual US policy hasn't changed much. He's no more propping up dictators than any previous president.

To be fair, Barack Obama actually did overthrow a dictator - Kaddafi, in Libya. Two, if you think the US interfered significantly in the Egyptian regime change. He tried to get in on the overthrow of a third. We all know how Syria turned out. So maybe it's for the best that Trump goes back to the usual policy of playing nice.

I assume you don't want President Trump to try to do in Iran what Bush did in Iraq. And you don't want him to try to do to North Korea what President Obama did to Libya and tried to do to Syria.

"Propping up dictators" seems like a dishonest way to describe policies that you probably actually approve of.

 

[varwoche]

This ^

Some day, maybe the movie Independence Day will come true. We could be invaded by space aliens with nasty intentions. The only way to overcome is for the people of the world to put aside our differences, petty or otherwise, and unite against a common enemy who represents an existential threat.

As this thread aptly demonstrates, we're screwed.

 

[TragicMonkey]

This would be a better zinger if the person I was talking to hadn't already resorted to making up falsehoods to smear Biden with.

It wasn't meant to be "a zinger", and I don't care about the previous conversation. I was making a statement of principle: the truth is better than falsehood, even if it's unpleasant.

Trying to cast Biden as better than he is is dishonest, and ultimately bad for Biden as the truth inevitably comes out and then you'll have to deal with not only his undesirable qualities but also the covering-up. A lot of people really don't like it when others attempt to deceive them. Selling Biden as a particular set of goods when he's actually another can backfire enormously. You think people might not vote for Biden if they hear mean things about him? It's true, they might not...but if you tell them nice things about Biden that they find out are lies they might not only not vote for Biden they might go out to vote for Trump, in reaction.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It wasn't meant to be "a zinger", and I don't care about the previous conversation. I was making a statement of principle: the truth is better than falsehood, even if it's unpleasant.

Trying to cast Biden as better than he is is dishonest, and ultimately bad for Biden as the truth inevitably comes out and then you'll have to deal with not only his undesirable qualities but also the covering-up. A lot of people really don't like it when others attempt to deceive them. Selling Biden as a particular set of goods when he's actually another can backfire enormously. You think people might not vote for Biden if they hear mean things about him? It's true, they might not...but if you tell them nice things about Biden that they find out are lies they might not only not vote for Biden they might go out to vote for Trump, in reaction.

It goes further than that too. The lies being told about Biden serve to ensure that he doesn't actually have to do anything for these people. Important decisions are being made right now about how Biden will run and govern, should he win. Biden's people trying to hide the ball is a gambit to ensure that less concessions have to be made to the more progressive wing of the party.

Biden's campaign wants the votes, but would rather lie than grant meaningful concessions that would bring these people into the tent.

 

[wareyin]

It wasn't meant to be "a zinger", and I don't care about the previous conversation. I was making a statement of principle: the truth is better than falsehood, even if it's unpleasant.

Whether or not you care about it, it's certainly relevant that those who absolutely have to say how horrible Biden is are including falsehoods in their claims.

Trying to cast Biden as better than he is is dishonest, and ultimately bad for Biden as the truth inevitably comes out and then you'll have to deal with not only his undesirable qualities but also the covering-up. A lot of people really don't like it when others attempt to deceive them. Selling Biden as a particular set of goods when he's actually another can backfire enormously. You think people might not vote for Biden if they hear mean things about him? It's true, they might not...but if you tell them nice things about Biden that they find out are lies they might not only not vote for Biden they might go out to vote for Trump, in reaction.

Trying to cast Biden as worse than he is is also dishonest, and ultimately bad for everyone if the result is a vote for Trump. Even setting aside the falsehoods, constantly harping on a minor flaw over and over and over can magnify that minor flaw into a major flaw to your audience, which is also dishonest and ultimately bad for everyone.

 

[BobTheCoward]

They said the same thing about George Bush. The truth is that the network of global alliances has remained unchanged throughout the Bush-Obama-Trump period.

You don't know the status of an alliance until you test it. As an ally, Canada let US planes land in Canada on 9/11 quickly and easily. Trump used the US's economic weight against Canada to get better deals on milk. What Canada will do in a time of need like before is more likely to be less generous.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You owned that strawman, well done. It barely even seemed like it was fighting back!

Care to tell us what your issue is then, if not saying you want some kind of revolution you aren't getting?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Care to tell us what your issue is then, if not saying you want some kind of revolution you aren't getting?

I'm not sure what you mean by revolution. Sanders was a reformist, despite what any hyperbolic campaign slogans may have said. He believed in our system, and thought it could be a vehicle to reforming the country. That isn't revolution by any measure.

Here's my issue:

Obama was probably a once in a lifetime caliber politician. Really, quite skilled. Seemed pretty smart, as far as one can tell from afar. If anyone could have made the centrist lib vision of America work, it was him. And he failed. Things continue to get worse for working people, wealth inequality runs amuck, the rich continue to concentrate political power, wars rage on.

Obama did better than most can expect, and what we got was ineffectual policies chased by right-wing reactionaries seizing power. Obama has demonstrated that neoliberalism (or third-way liberalism, whatever you want to call it) is itself a failed ideology. It can't be done right because it is fundamentally flawed at the core.

If Obama couldn't do it, neither can Biden. We know better now. Nostalgia for this period is absurd.

This country needs meaningful reform in pretty much every arena. The libs are impediments to this. The right wing is overtly hostile to our goals, and they will win unless bold action is taken. And we have Biden.

That's my issue.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

Trying to cast Biden as better than he is is dishonest, and ultimately bad for Biden as the truth inevitably comes out and then you'll have to deal with not only his undesirable qualities but also the covering-up. A lot of people really don't like it when others attempt to deceive them. Selling Biden as a particular set of goods when he's actually another can backfire enormously. You think people might not vote for Biden if they hear mean things about him? It's true, they might not...but if you tell them nice things about Biden that they find out are lies they might not only not vote for Biden they might go out to vote for Trump, in reaction.

I don't like Creepy Joe because he's old, a bad candidate, and he messes up his public appearances a lot. And his son's jobs do Biden no favors.

But people are complaining if we don't believe Reade we must be hypocrites or we're lying about Biden.

And at least one member is complaining Biden's going to continue in the role of corporate shill.

We're not going to get a ******* revolution. We'll be lucky not to see gerrymandering flip the House again. And we'll be very lucky if Trump gives us the Senate this go-round.

The things that matter RIGHT NOW:

Reversing the damage Trump has done: Biden will be good at doing that.

Stopping McConnell's relentless crusade to stuff the Federal courts with Prosperity Theology Evangelicals: Biden will be good at doing that.

And hopefully he'll be good at repairing the economic damage of this pandemic without dishonestly using it to get pro-Libertarian policies in place like privatizing the post office and turning all the public schools into private charter schools. I don't see Biden selling off US assets to those privateers drooling on the sidelines.


This is a dishonest view of Biden, how?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I don't like Creepy Joe because he's old, a bad candidate, and he messes up his public appearances a lot. And his son's jobs do Biden no favors.

But people are complaining if we don't believe Reade we must be hypocrites or we're lying about Biden.

And at least one member is complaining Biden's going to continue in the role of corporate shill.

We're not going to get a ******* revolution. We'll be lucky not to see gerrymandering flip the House again. And we'll be very lucky if Trump gives us the Senate this go-round.

The things that matter RIGHT NOW:

Reversing the damage Trump has done: Biden will be good at doing that.

Stopping McConnell's relentless crusade to stuff the Federal courts with Prosperity Theology Evangelicals: Biden will be good at doing that.

And hopefully he'll be good at repairing the economic damage of this pandemic without dishonestly using it to get pro-Libertarian policies in place like privatizing the post office and turning all the public schools into private charter schools. I don't see Biden selling off US assets to those privateers drooling on the sidelines.


This is a dishonest view of Biden, how?

That's not a dishonest view. The dishonest view is attempting to shut down all criticism of Biden, including legitimate criticism of crap he definitely did, on the grounds that it might damage The Cause of defeating Trump.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I don't like Creepy Joe because he's old, a bad candidate, and he messes up his public appearances a lot. And his son's jobs do Biden no favors.

But people are complaining if we don't believe Reade we must be hypocrites or we're lying about Biden.

And at least one member is complaining Biden's going to continue in the role of corporate shill.

We're not going to get a ******* revolution. We'll be lucky not to see gerrymandering flip the House again. And we'll be very lucky if Trump gives us the Senate this go-round.

The things that matter RIGHT NOW:

Reversing the damage Trump has done: Biden will be good at doing that.

Stopping McConnell's relentless crusade to stuff the Federal courts with Prosperity Theology Evangelicals: Biden will be good at doing that.

And hopefully he'll be good at repairing the economic damage of this pandemic without dishonestly using it to get pro-Libertarian policies in place like privatizing the post office and turning all the public schools into private charter schools. I don't see Biden selling off US assets to those privateers drooling on the sidelines.
This is a dishonest view of Biden, how?

Biden supported No Child Left Behind, which allowed money to flow from struggling public schools to private charters. Literally defunding public education in favor of market-based solutions. Biden supported the legislation that gave this movement legs.

The greatest success story in this country dealing with school inequality was the busing policy, and Biden made his bones opposing it.

 

[wareyin]

This country needs meaningful reform in pretty much every arena. The libs are impediments to this. The right wing is overtly hostile to our goals, and they will win unless bold action is taken. And we have Biden.

That's my issue.

To be sure, doing everything in your power to assist the party that is overtly hostile to your goals is certainly bold. It's not very smart, or a good strategy, but it's definitely bold.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

To be sure, doing everything in your power to assist the party that is overtly hostile to your goals is certainly bold. It's not very smart, or a good strategy, but it's definitely bold.

There are two major parties overtly hostile to my goals, please be specific.

 

[wareyin]

That's not a dishonest view. The dishonest view is attempting to shut down all criticism of Biden, including legitimate criticism of crap he definitely did, on the grounds that it might damage The Cause of defeating Trump.

How well did harping over and over and over about criticisms (legitimate and otherwise) we had with Trump's opponent work out last time? It sure seems like it damaged the cause of defeating Trump.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

How well did harping over and over and over about criticisms (legitimate and otherwise) we had with Trump's opponent work out last time? It sure seems like it damaged the cause of defeating Trump.

I don't have the head of CNN's name in my rolodex. Nothing said here is going to stop the media from discussing Biden's numerous shortcomings.