Historical Jesus

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The difference between the myths and legends of the likes of Alexander the Great and Jesus is that the events of Alexander's life are supported by external evidence, whereas the alleged events of Jesus' life are not supported by any contemporary evidence at all. This is not to say that Jesus never existed as a peripatetic preacher who acquired a few followers before getting himself executed. Stories don't evolve in a vacuum.

But the stupendous events attributed to him in the NT (e.g. those surrounding the crucifixion) are highly improbable. Exact contemporaries such as Philo, who wrote an account of the Jews, made no mention of Jesus. At all! And he lived in and around Jerusalem the entire time that Jesus existed.

I agree.
I was discussing Dejudge's rigid claim that the dating of a manuscript decides the date of narrated events.

Jesus is in similar situation of other "historical" characters from which is not expected to have laid archeological remains. Hillel, the Elder, Solon, Socrates, Buddha, Homer and others. The reasons to believe whether they existed or not are not evidences in the strong sense.
 
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I agree.
I was discussing Dejudge's rigid claim that the dating of a manuscript decides the date of narrated events.

Jesus is in similar situation of other "historical" characters from which is not expected to have laid archeological remains. Hillel, the Elder, Solon, Socrates, Buddha, Homer and others. The reasons to believe whether they existed or not are not evidences in the strong sense.

Some evidence can be fairly strong, though, without being strictly archaeological remains. Arcaheology is a very important tool in historians' toolbox, but not the only one.

Another one is, basically, Occam, or rather one of it's sub-cases in the historical method: the historical necessity criterion.

E.g., even if we didn't have ANY plausible biographies of Alexander, one fact among many is that suddenly all the diadochi states appear all the way to flippin' India, and then argue and fight and murder their way around who's the real Slim Shady... err... successor of Alexander. But even without the last part, SOMEONE had to physically lead an army and conquer all that land. People over half a continent don't just go, "meh, let's join a foreign empire, put a foreign general on the throne, and be ruled by a foreign ruling elite" out of nowhere. And certainly not 5 different kingdoms at the same time. So SOMEONE must have effected that change.

It may turn out that he wasn't actually called Alexander, or wasn't a single guy, or whatever, but we still NEED someone real there doing that.

At the polar opposite end of the spectrum, we don't really need Timaeus of Locri from Plato's dialogues to be real. He only appears in one source, and even then in some events that never actually happened (Solon and Socrates weren't even alive at the same time, much less meet regularly to discuss philosophy), and appears to just say whatever the author wants him to say. There is no more reason to need him to be historical than Count Pyotr "Pierre" Kirillovich Bezukhov from War And Peace, or really anyone else who only ever appears in works of fiction and only as a mouthpiece for the author. He might still be real or not, but basically nothing NEEDS him to be.

"Paul" happens to be on the Alexander side of things, i.e., have a historical necessity, because some change was actually effected there. At some point there were no Xians in, say, Corinth, and then there were. We NEED someone to be there at some point and do that. Maybe he wasn't actually called "Paul" and maybe he wasn't exactly like the guy in the epistles, but we still need SOME guy there to start that church.

What dejudge doesn't seem to fully comprehend is that whatever those documents prove or don't prove, it doesn't get rid of that NECESSITY. He might be able to push "Paul" into the second century, at best, but that doesn't remove that necessity. Whether it was in the 1st or the 2nd century, someone is still NEEDED there to explain that change.
 
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How exactly do you know that there is not an earlier "Nag Hammadi" out there awaiting discovery?

You don't.

At best, you can claim "the earliest yet found." and no more than that.
Even without any earlier examples than we already have, I'm just still waiting for the explanation of why the ones we have are being said by dejudge to be later than I've always heard they were from other sources before. Why does he say second century, when they, or at least the earliest of them, are normally described as (later half of) the first?

He or she seemed to imply a while ago that the later dates might all be from paleography while the earlier ones are all from taking the contents, the authors' claims, as literal and accurate. But when I asked for confirmation or refutation of my inference on that, there was no answer.

"Paul" happens to be on the Alexander side of things, i.e., have a historical necessity, because some change was actually effected there. At some point there were no Xians in, say, Corinth, and then there were. We NEED someone to be there at some point and do that. Maybe he wasn't actually called "Paul" and maybe he wasn't exactly like the guy in the epistles, but we still need SOME guy there to start that church.

What dejudge doesn't seem to fully comprehend is that whatever those documents prove or don't prove, it doesn't get rid of that NECESSITY.
This gets especially bad for dejudge's argument when I consider something I accidentally stumbled into years ago about Julius Caesar.

JC is clearly needed as an explanation for a bunch of "Romans in France & Germany & England" evidence, plus a character in Nordic mythology called "Kaisar" who was supposed to have been a powerful king to the south, plus letters back & forth with other Roman politicians, plus commentaries by other Romans about him in third-person, plus the authorship of his own "De Bello Gallico". But when I went skimming through DBG, which I'd downloaded a translation of to read what exactly he'd written about the barbaians' tattoos after hearing about it indirectly, I saw something he'd written on a different subject, which almost nobody quotes or paraphrases anymore.

JC seriously believed that moose do not have knees, can't get up once they're down, sleep leaning against large trees, and are "hunted" by cutting part of the way through a trunk so the tree remains standing until a moose leans on it and they both fall.

This is obviously so absurd that not only is each part of it false alone, but the last two wouldn't even follow from the ones before them even if the first ones had been accurate. Treating DBG the way dejudge treats New Testament manuscripts, that would mean everything else about the entire book is false: not one single thing it said about the cultures JC encountered or the political relationships among them was accurate, the whole campaign he was on out there in the first place wasn't real, and JC didn't write it and might not have even existed... because if dejudge were to accept that a book could possibly contain both accurate and inaccurate things at the same time, then (s)he couldn't claim that the existence of some made-up stuff in the New Testament means everything about all of it must all be made-up.
 
dejudge said:
The myths and legends about Alexander the Great were not and never used to determine his historicity.

Of course, but myths and legends are intertwined with historical facts in the narrative about Alexander. Historians separate them. The same is a priori possible in the case of Jesus the Galilean.

Your statement is quite irrelevant once you admit myths and legends were never used to determine the historicity of Alexander the Great.

The stories of Jesus from conception to ascension does make his historicity more likely than Romulus, Remus, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, the sons of Jupiter or Alexander the Great.

dejudge said:
Your term "healthy scepticism" is completely arbitrary and meaningless. Who determines what your "healthy scepticism" is?

You very well know that all sceptics do not agree on everything.

You put forward the absurdity that whatever you do not agree with is not "healthy".
A healthy skepticism has to know the methods and conclusions of the experts on a specific subject. It has to recognize when skepticism is justified and when it is not. This is not the case with you. You enter history like an elephant in a china shop.

Just as I expected. You have merely exposed your ridiculous position.
 
...."Paul" happens to be on the Alexander side of things, i.e., have a historical necessity, because some change was actually effected there. At some point there were no Xians in, say, Corinth, and then there were. We NEED someone to be there at some point and do that. Maybe he wasn't actually called "Paul" and maybe he wasn't exactly like the guy in the epistles, but we still need SOME guy there to start that church.

What a bizarre ridiculous claim.

NT Paul is nowhere close to Alexander the Great's "historical necessity".

It is the complete opposite.

Alexander the Great is mentioned in many many historical writings of antiquity and artifacts of him have been found.

You will never ever find a single reference to Paul, his Epistles and Churches in any historical source and all mention of him are always total fiction either in the NT, apocrypha or apologetic sources.

In addition, the very NT show that the start of their Church of Christ did not require Paul.

It is claimed Paul persecuted the Church.

Paul, in the NT stories, attempted to destroy the Church.

Christian cults existed before Paul's conversion was fabricated.
 
The stories of Jesus from conception to ascension does make his historicity more likely than Romulus, Remus, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, the sons of Jupiter or Alexander the Great.

Post 1104 contains an error - should read as highlighted below.

"The stories of Jesus from conception to ascension do NOT make his historicity more likely than Romulus, Remus, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, the sons of Jupiter or Alexander the Great".
 
Aha! You recognize that the criterion of the legendary narrative is not valid to determine the existence of Alexander, since you now allude to other criteria.
You seem very inconsistent.

Aha, you do recognize that all we have of Jesus, the disciples and Paul are utter fiction in or out the NT.
 
@Delvo
Seems pretty much par for the course for the time, tbh.

And I mean, Caesar wasn't even trying to write a book on natural sciences. You'll occasionally find bigger inaccuracies (and easier to verify if he wanted to) in Pliny The Elder's "Natural History" which is actually supposed to be just that. E.g., that the quality of iron depends on the water it's quenched in, as opposed to the ore composition. You didn't even have to hunt a moose to verify it's wrong, just have someone re-heat and quench a knife in a different region and see if it gets any better.

Though on the topic of false information on animals, you only need to read Pliny The Elder's chapters on bees. I mean, he straight up makes up stuff like that bees hold councils in the hive to elect a bee king. (Book XI, chapter 5.) Or a couple of chapters later invents bee courts where the lazy ones are first given a warning, and then executed for the second offence. Or makes drones be some kind of slaves (obviously they must be inferior because they don't get stingers, right?) that are assigned to help the other bees as needed. Etc.

Basically he's not as much actually describing how bees work, but imagining them to work like his ideal republic.

Well, anyway, short version is: yes, you're right. And not just about Caesar. Ancient books tend to contain a lot of hearsay and in places outright invention. And you have to sort out which parts are bogus and which aren't.
 
Aha, you do recognize that all we have of Jesus, the disciples and Paul are utter fiction in or out the NT.

I think you've got it backwards. First you have to present a coherent story of what you think happened there and why, and only then we get to the stage where someone might "recognize it" or not. Sadly, you're not Paul, so decreeing unilaterally who agrees with something in your head, well, it won't really cut it :p
 
Aha, you do recognize that all we have of Jesus, the disciples and Paul are utter fiction in or out the NT.

I don't recognize it. In my opinion, in the gospels there are a good percentage of facts about Jesus that are false, another percentage is very suspicious and a small amount you can bet that it is true with reservations. For sure, nothing.

Well, yeah. That the holy dove doesn't exist
 
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I think you've got it backwards. First you have to present a coherent story of what you think happened there and why, and only then we get to the stage where someone might "recognize it" or not. Sadly, you're not Paul, so decreeing unilaterally who agrees with something in your head, well, it won't really cut it :p

So, you are Paul!!

Your claim that "Paul" happens to be on the Alexander side of things, i.e., have a historical necessity" is still known universal nonsense".
 
This is not to say that Jesus never existed as a peripatetic preacher who acquired a few followers before getting himself executed. Stories don't evolve in a vacuum.

Yeah, but is that really "Jesus"? Certainly not Jesus of the bible. Jesus of the bible had massive crowds and performed miracles, and was certainly not a "peripatetic preacher who acquired a few followers."

This is always my problem with these discussions. How biblical does the guy need to be before you call him that Jesus character?What if there evidence for a guy named Jesus who was the son of a woman named Mary and a carpenter named Joseph. Would that be a historical Jesus? But what if he never did any ministry, never had any followers and wasn't executed. He just led a normal life. Is that a historical Jesus? Heck, what if we could even show that the gospel writer Mark was his neighbor, and, in fact, in writing his gospel, based the character Jesus on the kid next door, but just invented the stories? Is that a historical Jesus?

"Yes, Jesus was based on a real person but none of the things described in the gospels actually happened to him."

Where is the line? It's all very fuzzy to me.
 
I'd also add that we're not even sure about the part where he's born of a guy named Joseph and/or a woman from David's line called Mary. That doesn't even appear until Matthew and is suspiciously matching a completely different guy that many believed to be the messiah.

Too many details from that story seem to be either nicked from other stories, and/or be just symbolic, and/or be highly implausible to have ever happened.

And I don't just mean the parables and miracles. Jesus's genealogy is obviously fitted to the requirement that he be from David's line, whether it's nicked from a previous guy or invented from scratch. Jesus's trials is a symbolic re-enactment of the OT Yom Kippur ritual. The part where they make another guy carry the cross for him is wrong: that was a humiliation that was a part of the punishment and they'd never just punish a random bystander like that. Even Jesus's place of execution seems to be just making him into a tropaeum, a symbol of victory. (Because that's what a human figure on a stick in a high place was: a tropaeum, commemorating a victory. And generally, the symbolism and custom of the age generally was that heroes die in high places, criminals die in low places.) Giving a body to a stranger would be flat out breaking Roman laws. Etc.

Not saying that some itinerant preacher couldn't have existed, but just elaborating how that guy's story would have differed from the gospel Jesus in pretty much ALL details. Not just the miracles and most sayings would be wrong, but basically even such tiny details as who were his mum and dad or where exactly did they nail him to the cross, are probably wrong.
 
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I'd also add that we're not even sure about the part where he's born of a guy named Joseph and/or a woman from David's line called Mary. That doesn't even appear until Matthew and is suspiciously matching a completely different guy that many believed to be the messiah.
Who?
 
My argument is that all NT writings were fabricated no earlier than the 2nd century.

The earliest existing manuscripts of all NT writings are found in Codices - not scrolls. That is, the Codex consists of leaves written on both sides which are bound with a cover to form a book instead of being on a roll with writing on one side only like a scroll.

Now it is very important to find out when the Codex was introduced in antiquity and it will be realized that the Codex was introduced between the 2nd and 4th century not the 1st century or before c 70 CE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_books

By the end of antiquity, between the 2nd and 4th centuries, the scroll was replaced by the codex. The book was no longer a continuous roll, but a collection of sheets attached at the back.

There is also evidence that scrolls were used exclusively for writing in the 1st century up to at least c 79 CE.

In Italy Mount Vesuvius erupted c 79 CE and Herculaneun was completely buried in many feet of ash.

Hundreds of years later, a Library of Herculaneum, the Villa of the Papyri was unearthed and only Scrolls were found inside

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herculaneum

Between 1752 and 1754 a number of blackened unreadable papyrus scrolls were serendipitously recovered from the Villa of the Papyri by workmen. These scrolls became known as the Herculaneum papyri or scrolls, the majority of which are today stored at the National Library, Naples.

Now, if any NT writing was composed since c50 CE then it would be expected to be in the form of scrolls not Codices.

No NT writing is in the form of a Scroll and no apologetic writer of antiquity claim that the NT writings were first written on scrolls.

In fact, when Isidore de Seville wrote about the Old and New Testament he specifically
stated the Old Testament was originally written on Scrolls.


https://sfponline.org/Uploads/2002/st isidore in english.pdf

A scroll (volumen) is a book so
called from rolling (volvere), as we speak of the scrolls
of the Law and the scrolls of the Prophets among the
Hebrews.

The Pentateuch is so called from its five scrolls...

These are the four prophets who are called Major Prophets, because they produced
long scrolls
.

[
Each book of the twelve prophets is entitled with
the name of its own author....... they are joined together and contained in one
scroll.


When Isidore wrote about the New Testament he mentioned nothing at all about scrolls.

There is also evidence that writings in the 1st century were done on Scrolls and not Codices with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The Dead Sea Scrolls (also the Qumran Caves Scrolls) are ancient Jewish religious manuscripts that were found in the Qumran Caves in the Judaean Desert, near Ein Feshkha on the northern shore of the Dead Sea in the West Bank. Scholarly consensus dates these scrolls from the last three centuries BCE and the first century CE.

Where are the Pauline and Gospel Scrolls?

Who ever mentioned a New Testament Scroll?

They are all unknown even by Christian writers.

All NT writings are Codices so must have been written no earlier than the 2nd century.
 
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I don't think you'll find many historical references before or after that, which feel a need to specify if their material is on a codex or on a scroll either way. Not just for the Xians, but generally, nobody did that. When they discussed whether Odysseus was the good guy or a villain (especially the Romans tended to see him as a villain) you also didn't see them specify whether they read it on a scroll or codex.

So basically what you have there is a textbook argument from ignorance. They don't SAY it was copied from a scroll, so you know it was a codex. It really is that stupid.
 
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