Biden for President?

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theprestige said:
You lost me. Progressivism is a rightward stance, now?
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Sorry, that was also meant as a sarcastic remark along the similar lines of Sideroxylon comment about Biden revealing himself to be pretty conservative.

The argument has been made by some that progressives should support Biden because Bernie and Warren's failed campaigns and endorsement means that Biden is somehow less conservative now. That by capitulating, the party has become more progressive by absorption. This has always struck me as ridiculous, but especially in light of this bizarre hawkish turn.

theprestige said:
You lost me again. Your axis is Democrat-Nationalist?
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I'd consider Trump to be more of a Nationalist than what used to be considered mainstream conservatism pre-Trump. At this point, Trumpism is mainstream conservatism, so the two can probably be interchanged.

In context of your point about the overton window, it's still very strange that a Democrat would attack an extremely right wing Republican from the right. I don't know how anyone can see this Biden ad as anything other than an attack on Trump for being insufficiently hawkish with China. It's ideologically incoherent.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
I'm not the only one puzzled why this strange, anti-China ad is the response to Trump's covid-19 blunders.
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A politician who's always been a dedicated right-winger still does right-wing stuff now. There's nothing puzzling about it.

theprestige said:
I'm thinking even people who haven't heard of the Overton Window as such still have a gut feeling about where America is and how far left a candidate can get before they fall away from the center of the window.
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The American populace has one window, politicians have their own, well to the right of that, and Biden's pushing to the right even from that one. This is not mere avoidance of being too far left for the voters.
 
Republicans don't hold a monopoly on hawkishness. It's one of the few things I actually liked about Hillary Clinton.
 
theprestige said:
You do know that Donald Trump is a human being though, yes? Even if he's a flawed human being, his flaws are still human flaws. His feelings are still human feelings. His rights are still human rights.

There is nothing apparently inhuman about him. He is inhuman only in the rhetoric of those who wish to portray him as inhuman for their own ends. That is what is glaringly apparent.
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I suppose how you react to the word depends on your understanding of its meaning. Here's Websters first definition: 1a: lacking pity, kindness, or mercy.

If Skeptic Ginger had said "Trump is lacking pity, kindness and mercy." Would your response have been the same?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The Democratic candidate trying to out-hawk the nationalist candidate is pretty noteworthy, even in the current overton window. This ad is attacking Trump from the right, it's absolutely bizarre.
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The current tone of many Trump defenders is the false dichotomy that COVID-19's not his fault, it's China's fault, so don't blame him, blame China.

Aside from them being too black-white thinking because both China and Trump could be at fault, this ad knocks the support out of the assumption that it's China's fault and that Trump has been tough on China. Plus, it shows that Biden also thinks China carries blame. Which they do.
 
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Jungle Jim said:
I suppose how you react to the word depends on your understanding of its meaning. Here's Websters first definition: 1a: lacking pity, kindness, or mercy.

If Skeptic Ginger had said "Trump is lacking pity, kindness and mercy." Would your response have been the same?
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I don't really care about Appeal to Dictionary as an argument. Lacking in pity is a very human flaw. It's also a very subjective judgement. Especially at this remove. We have a whole multi-part thread debating whether one can actually make this kind of assessment. Of course my response would be different. Calling out a specific human flaw you perceive in someone is very different from a blanket attempt to dehumanize them wholesale.
 
theprestige said:
I don't really care about Appeal to Dictionary as an argument. Lacking in pity is a very human flaw. It's also a very subjective judgement. Especially at this remove. We have a whole multi-part thread debating whether one can actually make this kind of assessment. Of course my response would be different. Calling out a specific human flaw you perceive in someone is very different from a blanket attempt to dehumanize them wholesale.
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"Inhumanity" refers to humane, not human.
 
TokenMac said:
"Inhumanity" refers to humane, not human.
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I bet if we looked in the dictionary, we'd find both definitions.

And no, I don't think SG is trying to say he behaves inhumanely.

I think the point of saying he's inhuman is to try to strip away his humanity, as part of the strategy of othering him so that it's easier to hate him. In that context, reminding his detractors that he is in fact human is an appropriate response.

It's the difference between "President Trump doesn't treat illegal immigrants very well at all" and "President Trump is an inhuman monster." The first is a legitimate and debatable position that reasonable people can hold (at least in principle). The second is a rhetorical trick to foreclose debate.
 
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Trump and Biden are deadlocked in six key 2020 election states, CNBC/Change Research poll finds

Voters in six key battleground states are split over whether they prefer President Trump or apparent Democratic nominee Joe Biden in the 2020 presidential election, a CNBC/Change Research poll found.
They also are roughly split over who would better handle a range of issues from combating the coronavirus to lifting the economy from a recession and reducing health costs.​

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/202...nd-biden-deadlocked-in-az-fl-mi-nc-pa-wi.html

#electability #pragmaticchoices
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Back to the topic of Biden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmieUrXwKCc&feature=emb_title

His most recent covid-19 political ad is bizarre. Basically seems to be attacking Trump for not sticking it to the Chinese hard enough.
Insists we should have made them accept having CDC scientists
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And what's wrong with that?

A government works best when it has as much information as possible. Trump wasn't trying to get that information.
Trump's travel bans weren't severe enough.
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I don't think the primary message is that "they weren't severe enough". I think the message is "the were ineffective".
Is this the plea that appeals to voters? That Trump wasn't sufficiently xenophobic? Is Biden trying to position himself to the right of Trump when it comes to anti-Chinese animus?
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Actually I think it does more to expose the hypocrisy and inconsistency that Trump exhibits. Reminding people that Trump has both praised and condemned China helps establish that he can't be trusted.
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Delvo said:
A politician who's always been a dedicated right-winger still does right-wing stuff now..
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I'm always amazed.

Somehow, a politician who wants to provide free college, expand access to health care, and increase taxes on corporations and the wealthy is "right wing".

You really have to wonder what you think the "political spectrum" really looks like.
 
Segnosaur said:
Reminding people that Trump has both praised and condemned China helps establish that he can't be trusted.
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Reasonable enough in principle. But everybody knows politicians flip-flop. Everybody's seen Trump go all over the map the past three years. This isn't going to be a game-changing revelation. This is going to be a "yes, we know, and we don't expect much better from Biden anyway" revelation.
 
Segnosaur said:
I'm always amazed.

Somehow, a politician who wants to provide free college, expand access to health care, and increase taxes on corporations and the wealthy is "right wing".

You really have to wonder what you think the "political spectrum" really looks like.
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Revolutionary Progressivism--Delvo-Sanders------------------|--Biden-Hitler-Trump-Reactionary Conservatism
 
theprestige said:
Delvo has claimed Trump is better than Biden on several occasions, so I don't think you have that spectrum right.
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... That is an intriguing claim. If you happen to have a link handy, I'd love to see it in context.
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There is this:

From: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13046794&postcount=557
"Actually, on military expeditionism, Biden and Trump aren't the same. Biden's worse."
- Delvo

Its a foolish claim, given the fact that Trump was supportive of both the Iraq invasion and the Libyan bombings, so Trump is just as willing to send troops into battle. (The differences between Biden and Trump is that Biden is that Biden is less likely to stumble into a war by accident, and also less likely to lie about things afterwards.)

Of course even if a BernieBro (in general, since Delvo isn't the one who has expressed similar opinions) doesn't think that Biden is as bad as Trump, their political thinking is rather messed up. (Such as labeling a politician who wants to raise taxes and increase health care spending "right wing" just because they don't want to have all executives stripped naked and paraded through the streets while someone rings a bell shouting "shame shame".)
 
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