Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

[eerok]

Which will increase the risk of new infections and subsequent deaths that could have been prevented by not relaxing any restrictions.

Indeed. Perhaps it's too soon.

I thought the whole point was to wait until they have reached somewhere near the end of the curve and then cautiously open up. If anything this would just extend the length that a lock-down is necessary, but it guess that might be acceptable.

That's the idea, but as we all know, there are political pressures and other factors. In a perfect world, individuals would take up the mantle during this crisis, isolate themselves, and sacrifice convenience to protect their neighbors. What I see is that all too often entitled jerks posture their freedom, lick doorknobs, and act like dickholes.

My question to you is where do you think Sweden falls in this spectrum?

 

[dann]

Well for one, Spain:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/eu-countries-coronavirus-lockdown-italy-spain

Apparently it's okay to allow even more people to die just for some god damn GDP.

Your hyperbole whenever you are talking about other countries than Sweden should tell you that you are trying to fool yourself. (And whenever you are talking about Sweden, you always play it down.)

In post 132 above, I linked to an article about the protests from 22 researchers. However, most of it was behind a paywall. The new article in Danish isn't:

'Fra den 7. til 9. april døde der hver dag 10,2 personer pr. 1 million indbyggere i Sverige, mens det i Italien var 9,7. I Danmark var det 2,9, i Norge 2,0 og i Finland 0,9,' skriver de 22 forskere, professorer og læger, der henviser til de strammere restriktioner i nabolandene og efterlyser lignende i Sverige.
22 svenske forskere slår alarm: Den svenske strategi har slået fejl (DR.dk, April 14, 2020)

'April 7 to 9, 10.2 people per million died every day in Sweden, whereas in Italy it as 9.7, in Denmark it was 2.9, in Norway 2.0 and in Finland 0.9, 'the 22 researchers, professors and doctors write, referring to the tighter restrictions in the neighboring countries and calling for similar restrictions in Sweden.
22 Swedish scientists raise the alarm: The Swedish strategy has failed

 

[dann]

Sweden: 22 Scientists Say Coronavirus Strategy Has Failed As Deaths Top 1,000 (Forbes, April 14, 2020)
Sweden's coronavirus strategy sparks fierce debate as deaths pass 1,000 (TheLocal.se, April 14, 2020)
Coronavirus deaths in Sweden pass 1,000 (India Today, April 14, 2020)
Coronavirus deaths in Sweden exceed 1000 (The Canberra Times, April 15, 2020)

And then there's this from last week about the strange case of Swedish nationalism and authoritarian thinking, which has already been demonstrated in this thread:

Many Norwegians shake their heads in disbelief at their neighbour Sweden’s approach to the coronavirus. But Sweden’s population greatly supports the country's corona experts, a recent study suggests.
(...)
The Swedes already have very high confidence in both politicians and the authorities, compared to other countries.
“When there is a crisis, people support the authorities. We’ve also seen this in previous crises. Eventually, as people begin to see how things will develop and end, then they can be more critical, and their trust may also be weakened,” she says.
Swedes trust their experts in the coronavirus crisis (Science Norway, April 6, 2020)

The article is in English, and I highly recommend it!

 

[dann]

My question to you is where do you think Sweden falls in this spectrum?

Worried enough to lose sleep over it!

 

[dann]

An aside about Swedish authoritarianism, but not about the corona crisis:

Political scientist Olof Petersson says one of the distinctive features of Swedish political culture is that it is both more authoritarian and more democratic than the European norm: in the Swedish model, authority consults widely, but is obeyed when it reaches a decision. There is always an elite consensus at the apex of Swedish society, and at any given time a very narrow range of acceptable views, but these can suddenly change, as did attitudes to the old welfare state after an economic crisis in the 1990s, or attitudes to refugees in 2015. (...)
The drawback of all authoritarian systems is that the people at the top will hear only what they want to, and gradually lose touch with reality.
Sweden’s far right has flourished because the elite lost touch with the people (Guardian, Aug. 26, 2018)

 

[dann]

How is it possible that any country can be so careless of lives as to essentially give up the fight more or less before they started?

It goes against the grain of Swedish mentality to doubt what their leaders tell them to think. It's a tough job to be Jan Guillou in a country like Sweden, but somebody's gotta do it.

 

[uke2se]

Hi everyone. Hope you had a nice Easter.

About Swedish trust in authority, that's pretty much correct. It's more or less a given in Swedish culture to trust what authorities say, or at the very least, obey. Debate is welcome and often quite fierce - as is the case right now about the matters under discussion in this thread - but it is still up to the authorities to make a decision and expect that decision to be followed. I'd say that's more or less how a Democracy is supposed to function. It could be construed that this makes us vulnerable to unscrupulous politicians, but we also have a strong press and, as I said, the debate is fierce. Over all, authorities are manned by people, and we sort of rely on them making decisions that benefit all people.

 

[dann]

Thank you, yes, and I hope you enjoyed Easter, too.
But I think it's time for you to stop relying on them making decisions that benefit all people. It doesn't seem to be working very well in this situation. Their decisions are making too many people sick, and it kills some of them, too.
You should start thinking for yourselves. Do what skeptics are supposed to do.
I mean, look at the arguments of this guy, Anders Tegnell:

22 researchers criticize the Swedish corona strategy, describe it as failed and ask the politicians to take control of it (Dagens Nyheter, April 14, 2020)
The chief epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, claims that the researchers got the number of deaths wrong (SVT.se, April 14, 2020)
He also says that there's going to be quite a lot of deaths for a while longer (Aftonbladet, April 14, 2020)
The interview in Aftonbladet also has this gem (or turd):

Donald Trump sade i fredags att om USA använt Sveriges strategi kunde landet haft 2 miljoner döda. Hur ser du på det uttalandet?
– Om han jämför dödstalen i New York med de vi har i Stockholm, så tror jag han har facit på det. Vi ligger väsentligt lägre än New York gör i dag.

Translation:
On Friday, Donald Trump said that if the USA had used Sweden's strategy, the county could have had two million deaths. What do you think of this statement?
- If he compares the number of deaths in New York with Stockholm, then I think he has [facit på det (I don't know what this means, dann)]. Today, we are considerably lower than New York.

I think it's pretty obvious why he prefers the comparison New York/Stockholm to Trump's comparison: USA/Sweden. See post 131.

 

[Arcade22]

I mean, look at the arguments of this guy, Anders Tegnell:

Trump has brought up Sweden at least a couple of times, and he has always been heavily exaggerating the situation, simply to make himself and his actions seem good in comparison.

Again, compared with Belgium Sweden is doing great.

 

[uke2se]

Thank you, yes, and I hope you enjoyed Easter, too.
But I think it's time for you to stop relying on them making decisions that benefit all people. It doesn't seem to be working very well in this situation. Their decisions are making too many people sick, and it kills some of them, too.
You should start thinking for yourselves. Do what skeptics are supposed to do.
I mean, look at the arguments of this guy, Anders Tegnell:

Well, in the current situation, thinking for myself - which I do - isn't sufficient to actually effect a change. We're sort of stuck with each other, us Swedes. We need organized leadership, and we're getting it, for better or worse.

 

[dann]

Trump has brought up Sweden at least a couple of times, and he has always been heavily exaggerating the situation, simply to make himself and his actions seem good in comparison.

Again, compared with Belgium Sweden is doing great.

And compared with San Marino, everbody is doing great, so if we all apply this nationalistic strategy diligently, all countries except one will come out as winners in the end! It is Trump's strategy, and yours as well: hyperbole and comparisons with countries that appear to be doing even worse in order to make your country seem good!

(And as for Belgium, Al Jazeera is quite impressed by the country's efforts to combat the virus: How a 'failed state' managed to contain a coronavirus outbreak - Belgium has long been written off as a dysfunctional state, yet its pandemic response has been remarkably functional. (Al Jazeera, April 13, 2020))

 

[ServiceSoon]

I can't comprehend the argument that Sweden's COVID policy is authoritarian.

An authoritarian government would be requiring compliance with strict rules and enforce those rules with force. That would eliminate the autonomy and choice of citizens. This is not the policy that Sweden has invoked.

Instead, the Swedish government is very soft in its policy. This allows Swedish citizens to exercise more caution than the government is requiring. This policy as I understand its implementation is the opposite of authoritarian.

There exist many times more freedom in the latter than the former.

 

[Elagabalus]

Thank you, yes, and I hope you enjoyed Easter, too.
But I think it's time for you to stop relying on them making decisions that benefit all people. It doesn't seem to be working very well in this situation. Their decisions are making too many people sick, and it kills some of them, too.
You should start thinking for yourselves. Do what skeptics are supposed to do.
I mean, look at the arguments of this guy, Anders Tegnell:

Nuke the Øresund Bridge from orbit! It's the only way to be sure!!

 

[Ulf Nereng]

I can't comprehend the argument that Sweden's COVID policy is authoritarian.

An authoritarian government would be requiring compliance with strict rules and enforce those rules with force. That would eliminate the autonomy and choice of citizens. This is not the policy that Sweden has invoked.

Instead, the Swedish government is very soft in its policy. This allows Swedish citizens to exercise more caution than the government is requiring. This policy as I understand its implementation is the opposite of authoritarian.

There exist many times more freedom in the latter than the former.

It certainly is an unusual usage of the word! Perhaps what is meant is that the government has put it all in the hands of their leading health-authority, dr Tegnell.

 

[Sherkeu]

It certainly is an unusual usage of the word! Perhaps what is meant is that the government has put it all in the hands of their leading health-authority, dr Tegnell.

Agree. A better way would be to say that citizens of Sweden have high levels of compliance with their authorities...which means leaders don't need to be "authoritarian".

 

[Klimax]

Country Deaths per million (TV2, April 14, 2020)
Sverige 103
USA 74
Danmark 52
And for the benefit of Baylor who insisted on comparing the USA with Norway:
Norge 26

Just to add extra comparison:
Czech Republic 16,6

 

[dann]

I can't comprehend the argument that Sweden's COVID policy is authoritarian.

That is good because that's not the argument. Did you read any of the articles in English that I've linked to? You appear to see the word 'authoritarian' and then assume that it's the same kind of authoritarianism that you expect to hear about whenever the word is mentioned, but I have been very careful about stressing that I am talking about the very particular kind of authoritarianism that you'll find in Swedes, i.e. the one that we have seen examples of exhibited by Swedes in this thread, the kind where Swedes accept what the government tells them even when facts like the death toll from the virus in Sweden is much worse than in all neighboring countries: twice that of Denmark, four times that of Norway. Not to mention all the weird arguments against the appalling conditions in Swedish hospitals and the fact that nursing homes have been particularly hard hit used as an excuse for the governments inaction: No preparations, no equipment, no tests ... In all other countries, the USA for instance, the government is criticized for lack of preparations. In this thread, that has been the main argument in favor of Sweden's coronavirus response.

An authoritarian government would be requiring compliance with strict rules and enforce those rules with force. That would eliminate the autonomy and choice of citizens. This is not the policy that Sweden has invoked.

Notice that instead of looking at Swedish authoritarianism, you begin this paragraph with a definiton of what you would expect from ordinary authoritarianism. If you look at the articles I've linked to instead, you will see how Swedish authoritarianism is described. You don't even need to go further than my quotations from some of those articles, for instance: "one of the distinctive features of Swedish political culture is that it is both more authoritarian and (!!!) more democratic than the European norm." (my (!!!), dann)

Instead, the Swedish government is very soft in its policy. This allows Swedish citizens to exercise more caution than the government is requiring. This policy as I understand its implementation is the opposite of authoritarian.

You obviously choose the point where Swedish authoritarianism differs from the ordinary kind, the one you expect when you hear the word, but at the same time you invent a feature of it that doesn't distinguish it from any other response to the coronavirus: I haven't yet heard of any government forbidding its citizens to "exercise more caution than the government is requiring."
Have you?

There exist many times more freedom in the latter than the former.

Well, maybe. In comparison with Denmark, I notice that Sweden allows groups of as many as 50 people where Denmark says 10. (And I haven't yet heard any politicians telling us that we are not allowed to practice our own restrictions and exercise more caution by never being in groups larger than 4!)

 

[dann]

Just to add extra comparison:
Czech Republic 16,6

Neighboring countries/regions:
Finland 13
Færøerne 0

 

[dann]

Agree. A better way would be to say that citizens of Sweden have high levels of compliance with their authorities...which means leaders don't need to be "authoritarian".

What is your definition of compliance? It seems to be that if only the citizens accept and obey the commands of the authorities, then there is no authoritarianism. (I don't know what your "" are supposed to imply.)

 

[dann]

It certainly is an unusual usage of the word! Perhaps what is meant is that the government has put it all in the hands of their leading health-authority, dr Tegnell.

No, that's not the point. If you want to get the point, you should instead look at the arguments that have been presented in this thread by Arcade22 and uke2se.
Compare this sentence:
"one of the distinctive features of Swedish political culture is that it is both more authoritarian and more democratic than the European norm."
with this description of Swedish political culture:

About Swedish trust in authority, that's pretty much correct. It's more or less a given in Swedish culture to trust what authorities say, or at the very least, obey. Debate is welcome and often quite fierce - as is the case right now about the matters under discussion in this thread - but it is still up to the authorities to make a decision and expect that decision to be followed. I'd say that's more or less how a Democracy is supposed to function. It could be construed that this makes us vulnerable to unscrupulous politicians, but we also have a strong press and, as I said, the debate is fierce. Over all, authorities are manned by people, and we sort of rely on them making decisions that benefit all people.