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Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

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Coronavirus hygge - an American in Denmark during the pandemic:

 
I propose a two-week worldwide lockdown to rid humanity of the flu and most other infectious diseases! :)
The zoonotic ones will still be a problem, though.
 
dann said:
I propose a two-week worldwide lockdown to rid humanity of the flu and most other infectious diseases! :)
The zoonotic ones will still be a problem, though.
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That’s the problem. Flu and other diseases have animal reservoirs so human action can’t completely eradicate them unless those reservoirs are eradicated too.
 
Arcade22 said:
No one ever died from diseases under socialism apparently.
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Didn't they? You are obviously very upset about the Swedish mismanagement of the response to Covid-19, but do you really consider it an argument that people die from diseases under socialism? Did anybody, Jan Guillou or I, for instance, claim that people only die from diseases under capitalism?

Ulf Nereng said:
Yes, but aren't the social democrats in power right now?
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They most certainly are, but as you can see, even somebody who is a big fan of the Social Democratic response to Covid-19 in Sweden doesn't think that they are socialists.
Neither do I.
 
dann said:
You are obviously very upset about the Swedish mismanagement of the response to Covid-19, but do you really consider it an argument that people die from diseases under socialism? Did anybody, Jan Guillou or I, for instance, claim that people only die from diseases under capitalism?
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I'm not upset, but it's telling that you find it within yourself to quote a dictator loving far-left extremist.

The problem with a serious lack of emergency preparedness and shortages in healthcare equipment and supplies is not nothing new. It has been a systemic fault caused by political decisions that has been acceptable by all the major political parties over decades since the end of the cold war and it has nothing to do with "capitalism".

The decentralization of healthcare organization and funding combined with increased municipal autonomy has been a mixed blessing in that it has protected some regions and municipalities from the kind of severe mismanagement that others (including Stockholm) has been subject to. Sweden's riches have been concentrated in the capital for as long as this country has existed, but somehow these greedy bastards find it beneath themselves to adequately fund their own healthcare, blaming the rest of country for siphoning off their money. Just before this crisis they were sacking doctors and nurses because they had wasted so much money on a boondoggle of a new hospital.

Hell the situation in many of the regions has been so unstable that when a couple of them changed the supplier of medical equipment and supplies, naturally to the one bidding the lowest, they suddenly found themselves in a crisis because the supplier couldn't keep up. Since many of the regions only have supplies on hand for just 48 hours, they had to pretty much stop all non-mandatory and non-emergency operations for two months. That was without Corona virus pandemic.
 
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Arcade22 said:
I'm not upset, but it's telling that you find it within yourself to quote a dictator loving far-left extremist.
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I have two quotes in my most recent post, one of yours and of Ulf Nereng's. Which one of you is the "dictator loving far-left extremist? :confused:

The problem with a serious lack of emergency preparedness and shortages in healthcare equipment and supplies is not nothing new. It has been a systemic fault caused by political decisions that has been acceptable by all the major political parties over decades since the end of the cold war and it has nothing to do with "capitalism".

The decentralization of healthcare organization and funding combined with increased municipal autonomy has been a mixed blessing in that it has protected some regions and municipalities from the kind of severe mismanagement that others (including Stockholm) has been subject to. Sweden's riches have been concentrated in the capital for as long as this country has existed, but somehow these greedy bastards find it beneath themselves to adequately fund their own healthcare, blaming the rest of country for siphoning off their money. Just before this crisis they were sacking doctors and nurses because they had wasted so much money on a boondoggle of a new hospital.
Hell the situation in many of the regions has been so unstable that when a couple of them changed the supplier of medical equipment and supplies, naturally to the one bidding the lowest, they suddenly found themselves in a crisis because the supplier couldn't keep up. Since many of the regions only have supplies on hand for just 48 hours, they had to pretty much stop all non-mandatory and non-emergency operations for two months. That was without Corona virus pandemic.
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It sounds an awful lot like capitalism to me. In fact, it sounds an awful lot like the miserable conditions in the USA right now under Trump. You even share his predilection for blaming the regions and their insufficient preparations.
 
22 researchers criticize the Swedish corona strategy, describe it as failed and ask the politicians to take control of it (Dagens Nyheter, April 14, 2020)
The chief epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, claims that the researchers got the number of deaths wrong (SVT.se, April 14, 2020)
He also says that there's going to be quite a lot of deaths for a while longer (Aftonbladet, April 14, 2020)
The interview in Aftonbladet also has this gem (or turd):

Donald Trump sade i fredags att om USA använt Sveriges strategi kunde landet haft 2 miljoner döda. Hur ser du på det uttalandet?
– Om han jämför dödstalen i New York med de vi har i Stockholm, så tror jag han har facit på det. Vi ligger väsentligt lägre än New York gör i dag.
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Translation:
On Friday, Donald Trump said that if the USA had used Sweden's strategy, the county could have had two million deaths. What do you think of this statement?
- If he compares the number of deaths in New York with Stockholm, then I think he has [facit på det (I don't know what this means, dann)]. Today, we are considerably lower than New York.

I think it's pretty obvious why he prefers the comparison New York/Stockholm to Trump's comparison: USA/Sweden. See post 131.
 
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Hmmm. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...octor-death-certificates-latest-a9462796.html

Despite the mounting concerns of experts both at home and abroad, Sweden continues what Anders Tegnell, the country’s chief epidemiologist, has called a “low-scale” approach. He insists this “is much more sustainable” in the long run.

Primary schools, shops, restaurants and bars remain open and people are allowed to go out and exercise.

But Sweden’s cases are rising. The country of some 10 million now has more than 10,000 cases and 887 deaths. Its total death toll is higher than that of all the other Nordic countries put together.

The government has said repeatedly that the main cornerstone of their strategy is to protect the elderly. Since the beginning of the crisis, they have been asked to stay home but despite these measures, the virus has spread to one-third of nursing homes in Stockholm, which has resulted in a spike in fatalities.

Prime minister Stefan Lofven recently admitted in an interview with daily Svenska Dagbladet that “Sweden has not succeeded in protecting its elderly”. Mr Lofven also warned citizens to prepare for possibly up to “thousands” of deaths.
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There is every possibility of a vaccine against this virus. It is also clear that it is possible to slow the spread very dramatically with test/trace/isolate operations and that when such an operation is in place it is then possible to ease off on quarantine restrictions to allow many people back to work and get the economy moving to some extent.

Not only that, the experience of China, New Zealand and the Faroe Isles suggests that this virus is actually eradicable, with the main confounder being incoming travellers. (It will be interesting to see how New Zealand deals with that in the coming months.)

This is in all probability a medium term problem. Vaccine science is a highly developed subject and the urgency is great. Multiple teams are working on different approaches. A year, quite possibly. 18 months, probably. Two years, maybe. It is certainly possible to keep a test/trace/isolate operation going that long. That has the potential to save untold numbers of lives. South Korea is already demonstrating that.

How is it possible that any country can be so careless of lives as to essentially give up the fight more or less before they started?
 
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Rolfe said:
How is it possible that any country can be so careless of lives as to essentially give up the fight more or less before they started?
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Well it seems like many other countries have given up and are going to open up long before the virus has gone away. I just guess they could not stomach it anymore.
 
I guess they simply don't understand the science. Which is maybe not surprising as there is a lot of misinformation and faulty reasoning around. We'll see how they stomach the death toll that's coming down the road if they decide to move back into the house while it's still burning.
 
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eerok said:
What countries?
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Well for one, Spain:

Workers in Spain returned to some factory and construction jobs as the health ministry said that while the country’s death toll had surpassed 18,000, the highest in Europe after Italy, its daily increase in new cases was the lowest since 17 March.

Most shops and services remained closed, however, and office staff must still work from home if they can. Salvador Illa, the health minister, said he would proceed “with the utmost caution and prudence … and always based on scientific evidence”.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/eu-countries-coronavirus-lockdown-italy-spain

Apparently it's okay to allow even more people to die just for some god damn GDP.
 
Arcade22 said:
Well for one, Spain:



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/eu-countries-coronavirus-lockdown-italy-spain

Apparently it's okay to allow even more people to die just for some god damn GDP.
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So it seems that no country you can name has actually "given up." Spain seems to be tentatively relaxing some restrictions. This is what's going to happen when strict measures have lowered new cases of the virus according to the Hammer and Dance model, which will not happen in Sweden due to their political choices.
 
Rolfe said:
I guess they simply don't understand the science. Which is maybe not surprising as there is a lot of misinformation and faulty reasoning around. We'll see how they stomach the death toll that's coming down the road if they decide to move back into the house while it's still burning.
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But the Spanish guy there in the news article said he was guided by science. Maybe they can live with people dying.
 
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eerok said:
So it seems that no country you can name has actually "given up." Spain seems to be tentatively relaxing some restrictions.
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Which will increase the risk of new infections and subsequent deaths that could have been prevented by not relaxing any restrictions.

I thought the whole point was to wait until they have reached somewhere near the end of the curve and then cautiously open up. If anything this would just extend the length that a lock-down is necessary, but it guess that might be acceptable.
 
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