Democratic caucuses and primaries

[d4m10n]

Tell me again about toxic bernie bros.

Since you asked, I've seen half a dozen of them making false equivalencies between Trump and Biden just this afternoon. One of them publicly broadcast his indifference as to who wins. Such a vulgar display of moral indifference between such starkly contrasted candidates.

 

[Stacyhs]

Or better yet, hopefully the democrats will remind people that it is Trump and the Republicans who want to put people's lives in danger instead of allowing more widespread vote-by-mail in the general election.

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

Trump is still lying about fraud in vote by mail states. Today he repeated his claim. When asked for evidence, it was clear he was desperately trying to come up with something. He said he'd find it and give it later. HA! He then went on to claim California, which does not have vote by mail, had a million fraudulent votes with people 115 year old 'voting' which Judicial Watch had confirmed. This is a repeat of the same claim he made last June. Politifact judged this "Pants on Fire".

States that vote entirely by mail see little fraud.
Five states, including the Republican bastion of Utah, now conduct all elections almost entirely by mail. They report very little fraud. The state is among the six states with the highest percentage of mail-in votes in the last election in 2018, all of which had Republican state election supervisors at the time, according to David J. Becker, the director of the Center for Election Innovation and Reform.

Colorado, which has 3.5 million registered voters, has been a vote-by-mail state since 2014.

“There’s just very little evidence that there is more than a handful of fraudulent (vote-by-mail) cases across the country in a given election cycle,” said Judd Choate, the director of elections in the Colorado Department of State.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/mail-in-voting-explained.html

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Since you asked, I've seen half a dozen of them making false equivalencies between Trump and Biden just this afternoon. One of them publicly broadcast his indifference as to who wins. Such a vulgar display of moral indifference between such starkly contrasted candidates.

The disappointment of Bernie dropping out is still fresh. Come election time the overwhelming majority of Bernie supporters will vote for Biden. I wouldn't read into these comments that much. Talk is cheap.

That's probably the limit of what you can expect from them though. There will be no enthusiasm for Biden from the Bernie crowd, just begrudging acceptance. It's up to the Biden supporters to propel him over the finish line, I hope they are up for it. I have a hard time imagining that many folks knocking on doors or doing other volunteer efforts for his campaign.

Then again, maybe enthusiasm doesn't matter, it didn't get Bernie over the top.

 

[Polaris]

The disappointment of Bernie dropping out is still fresh. Come election time the overwhelming majority of Bernie supporters will vote for Biden. I wouldn't read into these comments that much. Talk is cheap.

That's probably the limit of what you can expect from them though. There will be no enthusiasm for Biden from the Bernie crowd, just begrudging acceptance. It's up to the Biden supporters to propel him over the finish line, I hope they are up for it. I have a hard time imagining that many folks knocking on doors or doing other volunteer efforts for his campaign.

Then again, maybe enthusiasm doesn't matter, it didn't get Bernie over the top.

Feeling is apparently mutual. The Biden crowd has made no effort to court the Bernie supporters, beyond browbeating and (IMHO) empty promises.

I'll hold my nose and vote for the DNC's stooge, but only because it's vital to deny the spoiled tangerine a second term in the White House. But I expect any noise they've made about pushing progressive interests to be made in bad faith.

 

[fishbob]

The disappointment of Bernie dropping out is still fresh. Come election time the overwhelming majority of Bernie supporters will vote for Biden. I wouldn't read into these comments that much. Talk is cheap.

That's probably the limit of what you can expect from them though. There will be no enthusiasm for Biden from the Bernie crowd, just begrudging acceptance. It's up to the Biden supporters to propel him over the finish line, I hope they are up for it. I have a hard time imagining that many folks knocking on doors or doing other volunteer efforts for his campaign.

Then again, maybe enthusiasm doesn't matter, it didn't get Bernie over the top.

That's me. To a T.
Matter of fact, when I start a band, that will be the name.
Because 'Anybody Else' will already be taken.

 

[wareyin]

Look, I have been calling you a liar and demented and all sorts of other names, but it's your fault because you didn't court me enough!

 

[theprestige]

The disappointment of Bernie dropping out is still fresh. Come election time the overwhelming majority of Bernie supporters will vote for Biden. I wouldn't read into these comments that much. Talk is cheap.

That's probably the limit of what you can expect from them though. There will be no enthusiasm for Biden from the Bernie crowd, just begrudging acceptance. It's up to the Biden supporters to propel him over the finish line, I hope they are up for it. I have a hard time imagining that many folks knocking on doors or doing other volunteer efforts for his campaign.

Then again, maybe enthusiasm doesn't matter, it didn't get Bernie over the top.

This is such self serving Bernie Bro BS. After months of threatening to stay home if Bernie didn't get the nom, now you're setting the stage to blame Biden supporters if turnout is low in November.

Your promise of begrudging acceptance from the Bros rings hollow. You're just trying to inoculate against the backlash when the Bros do exactly what they promised.

I thought this was a case of sincere but irreconcilable differences of ideology and strategy on the left. This is the moment where the Bernie Bros turned out to be the faction of unearned confidence and porkies.

 

[Suddenly]

This is such self serving Bernie Bro BS. After months of threatening to stay home if Bernie didn't get the nom, now you're setting the stage to blame Biden supporters if turnout is low in November.
.

Who else is ever to blame? He's the candidate. A candidate that was supposed to attract Republican moderates. Go get them. Getting them means moving right. Just quit whining that this risks losing some left wing voters.

The Clinton/Obama administrations willfully neglected the interests of the left as a political ploy. A brinkmanship tactic that the left's only recourse is to allow a Republican to be elected. Triangulation, third way, whatever.

Which works, but usually the center is a bit more gracious about this and doesn't start screaming about the left being disloyal.

 

[wareyin]

Who else is ever to blame? He's the candidate. A candidate that was supposed to attract Republican moderates. Go get them. Getting them means moving right. Just quit whining that this risks losing some left wing voters.

The Clinton/Obama administrations willfully neglected the interests of the left as a political ploy. A brinkmanship tactic that the left's only recourse is to allow a Republican to be elected. Triangulation, third way, whatever.

Which works, but usually the center is a bit more gracious about this and doesn't start screaming about the left being disloyal.

Look you guys, just because I'm calling you a liar and a right winger and demented and doing my best to convince my friends not to vote for you, that doesn't mean you should call me disloyal!

edited to add: Look, just because I chose the Republican last time because I decided it was my only recourse (even though I could have actually voted for the candidate who won't actively work against my goals in reality) and I'm threatening to do it again, why would you complain about me being disloyal!

 

[Delvo]

He's the candidate. A candidate that was supposed to attract Republican moderates. Go get them.

But having voters on your side who might otherwise vote Republican is badwrongeeeeviiilllll!!!

Oops, wait... that was just for Bernie.

Getting them means moving right.

Only if one thinks of politics as having only a single spectrum along which people take their positions. Another spectrum, with populism at one end and something we don't have a single name for at the other end (something like oligarchy or elitism or even just anti-populism), actually describes the situation better lately, and people whose positions are defined primarily on that spectrum exist on both the right and the left.

That's part of why the gloating corporatist Democrats' sneering derision about Bernie not winning in "his own party" are entirely bonko. It treats the internal machinations of the party as the easy part, when in fact, as he and his supporters knew and said all along, that was always going to be the hard part.

The Clinton/Obama administrations willfully neglected the interests of the left as a political ploy. A brinkmanship tactic that the left's only recourse is to allow a Republican to be elected.

Every time they trot out the brinksmanship and fear-mongering about how this particular Republican candidate must be stopped and this particular election is so uniquely important that we just can't let it go wrong this particular time, and we can go back to debating what this party should stand for or who the bad apples are in this party some other time when the stakes aren't so uniquely high as they are just this time... it makes me wonder when that time we're supposed to be waiting for, when it will finally be OK to dispute their rightful dominance in the party, will ever arrive... because the Republicans somehow keep putting up opponents, and then the next time around it's the same thing again just like last time and the time before and so on. When are they telling us the Republicans will just sit one out or put up a candidate who's just fine to Democrats? Because I don't believe such a time will ever come, and if it's not about waiting for the right time, then it's just an excuse to never ever be challenged, a modern-day divine right of kings.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This is such self serving Bernie Bro BS. After months of threatening to stay home if Bernie didn't get the nom, now you're setting the stage to blame Biden supporters if turnout is low in November.

Your promise of begrudging acceptance from the Bros rings hollow. You're just trying to inoculate against the backlash when the Bros do exactly what they promised.

I thought this was a case of sincere but irreconcilable differences of ideology and strategy on the left. This is the moment where the Bernie Bros turned out to be the faction of unearned confidence and porkies.

That's been the lay of the land since day 1. Some percentage of Bernie supporters, be they ultra lefties or populist swing voters, are not going to go to Biden. It was likewise understood that centrist conservatives that might like Biden would never vote for Bernie if he got the nomination. Such is the nature of selecting a candidate, some voters are too alienated to accept it.

It is absolutely childish and naive to assume that everyone participating in the Democratic primary would automatically accept whoever emerged victorious. Party loyalty is not something everyone cares about, as much as the DNC shills might whine about it. This faux outrage is not convincing. This is the choice the party made.

Raging about these voters not voting for Biden is like screaming at the sun for rising each day. It's a wasted effort.

Biden's campaign must have some idea what their path to victory and coalition of voters looks like. The fact that 10-15% of Bernie supporters are not among them should not come as a shock to anyone. Get busy picking up Never-Trump conservatives and non-partisan swing voters and stop crying about the fringe minority of Bernie supporters that are going to vote PSL, these voters were always beyond reach for people like Biden.

 

[wareyin]

But having voters on your side who might otherwise vote Republican is badwrongeeeeviiilllll!!!

Oops, wait... that was just for Bernie.

Seriously, where are you getting this from? Absolutely no one other than yourself appears to think that 1: getting Republican voters to vote Dem would be bad, and 2: that Sanders had a shot to get large numbers of Republican voters.

Only if one thinks of politics as having only a single spectrum along which people take their positions. Another spectrum, with populism at one end and something we don't have a single name for at the other end (something like oligarchy or elitism or even just anti-populism), actually describes the situation better lately, and people whose positions are defined primarily on that spectrum exist on both the right and the left.

That's part of why the gloating corporatist Democrats' sneering derision about Bernie not winning in "his own party" are entirely bonko. It treats the internal machinations of the party as the easy part, when in fact, as he and his supporters knew and said all along, that was always going to be the hard part.

Of course the "internal machinations" of the party are going to be hard for Sanders. He was busy demonizing them instead of trying to work with them. Internal machinations require accepting a range of ideologies exist in your party and you have to work with most or all of them, but Sanders demands pure adherence to his goals and his ideals only. Heck, it would have been damn near impossible for Sanders to handle internal machinations, not just hard, and it's what everyone else has been telling you guys all along.

Every time they trot out the brinksmanship and fear-mongering about how this particular Republican candidate must be stopped and this particular election is so uniquely important that we just can't let it go wrong this particular time, and we can go back to debating what this party should stand for or who the bad apples are in this party some other time when the stakes aren't so uniquely high as they are just this time... it makes me wonder when that time we're supposed to be waiting for, when it will finally be OK to dispute their rightful dominance in the party, will ever arrive... because the Republicans somehow keep putting up opponents, and then the next time around it's the same thing again just like last time and the time before and so on. When are they telling us the Republicans will just sit one out or put up a candidate who's just fine to Democrats? Because I don't believe such a time will ever come, and if it's not about waiting for the right time, then it's just an excuse to never ever be challenged, a modern-day divine right of kings.

You think the focus should be on weeding out the "bad apples" in the Democratic Party during the general election, rather than beating the opponent? This explains a lot.

 

[wareyin]

That's been the lay of the land since day 1. Some percentage of Bernie supporters, be they ultra lefties or populist swing voters, are not going to go to Biden. It was likewise understood that centrist conservatives that might like Biden would never vote for Bernie if he got the nomination. Such is the nature of selecting a candidate, some voters are too alienated to accept it.

I'm curious why we are comparing members of Biden's party not voting for Biden to members of Trump's party not voting for Sanders? I'm hoping this isn't yet another attempt to frame mainstream Democrats as actually conservative Republicans, but I can't see any other reason that you compared apples to oranges there.

It is absolutely childish and naive to assume that everyone participating in the Democratic primary would automatically accept whoever emerged victorious. Party loyalty is not something everyone cares about, as much as the DNC shills might whine about it. This faux outrage is not convincing. This is the choice the party made.

It is pretty obvious that some have no party loyalty, that is true. Of course, we can be sure that if Sanders had somehow won the nomination those same people would be counting on the rest of the Democratic voters to actually vote for the Democratic candidate. Most probably would vote blue no matter who, I bet, as that was what they were saying even when Sanders was looking like he had a good shot. It seems like the "my way or the highway" candidate has supporters with the same selfish "my way or the highway" attitude.

Raging about these voters not voting for Biden is like screaming at the sun for rising each day. It's a wasted effort.

Biden's campaign must have some idea what their path to victory and coalition of voters looks like. The fact that 10-15% of Bernie supporters are not among them should not come as a shock to anyone. Get busy picking up Never-Trump conservatives and non-partisan swing voters and stop crying about the fringe minority of Bernie supporters that are going to vote PSL, these voters were always beyond reach for people like Biden.

I do have to say that since Sanders had fewer supporters this time around, it would be nice if it is only 10-15% who throw away their votes on protest candidates. 10% of a much smaller number is better than 10% of a bigger number, so hopefully the "hold my breath until you give me my candy" faction won't have as much effect this time.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm curious why we are comparing members of Biden's party not voting for Biden to members of Trump's party not voting for Sanders? I'm hoping this isn't yet another attempt to frame mainstream Democrats as actually conservative Republicans, but I can't see any other reason that you compared apples to oranges there.

No, I meant more that Joe seems to have a strategy of appealing to centrist conservatives who are open to voting for a Democrat because they don't like Trump. These people would prefer to vote for a less radical conservative, but that option is not available. The Jennifer Rubin vote, if you will.

It is pretty obvious that some have no party loyalty, that is true. Of course, we can be sure that if Sanders had somehow won the nomination those same people would be counting on the rest of the Democratic voters to actually vote for the Democratic candidate. Most probably would vote blue no matter who, I bet, as that was what they were saying even when Sanders was looking like he had a good shot. It seems like the "my way or the highway" candidate has supporters with the same selfish "my way or the highway" attitude.



I do have to say that since Sanders had fewer supporters this time around, it would be nice if it is only 10-15% who throw away their votes on protest candidates. 10% of a much smaller number is better than 10% of a bigger number, so hopefully the "hold my breath until you give me my candy" faction won't have as much effect this time.

Bernie brought in voters who aren't typical Democratic party voters. Some of these people only participated in the primary because they wanted to vote for Bernie, not because they cared about the party. Their support of the Democratic ticket was clearly conditional on a Bernie candidate.

Biden people losing their minds because someone on Twitter named "LeonThotsky69" isn't going to vote for Biden is a wasted effort. Generally speaking, this person has no interest in the Democratic party, and Bernie was a rare exception. Now that he's gone, they return to their norm of not supporting the party.

Biden people should stop whining about not getting support from people that were never, under any condition, going to support him. The fact that they may have supported Bernie is irrelevant.

 

[wareyin]

No, I meant more that Joe seems to have a strategy of appealing to centrist conservatives who are open to voting for a Democrat because they don't like Trump. These people would prefer to vote for a less radical conservative, but that option is not available. The Jennifer Rubin vote, if you will.

Fair enough. It's a reasonable strategy to take your opponent's voters, as 1 Rep voting Dem is worth more than 1 person who wasn't going to vote anyway still not voting.

Bernie brought in voters who aren't typical Democratic party voters. Some of these people only participated in the primary because they wanted to vote for Bernie, not because they cared about the party. Their support of the Democratic ticket was clearly conditional on a Bernie candidate.

Biden people losing their minds because someone on Twitter named "LeonThotsky69" isn't going to vote for Biden is a wasted effort. Generally speaking, this person has no interest in the Democratic party, and Bernie was a rare exception. Now that he's gone, they return to their norm of not supporting the party.

Biden people should stop whining about not getting support from people that were never, under any condition, going to support him. The fact that they may have supported Bernie is irrelevant.

At this point, we aren't "Biden people", we're Democrats and/or we're people who want Trump gone and/or we're people who want/need a competent person running the country. And those are all good reasons to be upset with people who voted in the Democratic primary who are now trying to defeat the Democratic party entire because of sour grapes.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Fair enough. It's a reasonable strategy to take your opponent's voters, as 1 Rep voting Dem is worth more than 1 person who wasn't going to vote anyway still not voting.




At this point, we aren't "Biden people", we're Democrats and/or we're people who want Trump gone and/or we're people who want/need a competent person running the country. And those are all good reasons to be upset with people who voted in the Democratic primary who are now trying to defeat the Democratic party entire because of sour grapes.

That's an assumption of motives. I'm sure the party would love to frame all these people as petty children acting out of spite, but that I imagine that is not the reality for very many of them.

 

[theprestige]

That's an assumption of motives. I'm sure the party would love to frame all these people as petty children acting out of spite, but that I imagine that is not the reality for very many of them.

The road to four more years of Trump is paved with good revolutionary progressive intentions.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The road to four more years of Trump is paved with good revolutionary progressive intentions.

The road to 4 years of Trump is paved with terrible centrist lib candidates that no one wants to vote for.

 

[tyr_13]

The road to 4 years of Trump is paved with terrible centrist lib candidates that no one wants to vote for.

...more did vote for him. I guess you can claim they didn't really want to, but more people were willing to vote for the 'terrible centrist lib candidate' in the primary, and in the last presidential election.

Hypothesis dies to empirical observation.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

My point is this.

Bernie's campaign brought in people that were never going to support a mainstream Democratic candidate. Now that Bernie is out, these people are probably gone too.

Whining about this makes no sense. These people were never in play for Biden. If Bernie had never entered the race, they still wouldn't vote for Biden. Bernie's going to go out and campaign for Biden, and these people won't care.

Complaining about these people makes about as much sense as complaining about people voting for the Libertarian party. These votes were never obtainable for mainstream party candidates.

Perhaps that's for the best, there really aren't that many of them, proven by Bernie's inability to successfully run an insurgency campaign.

If Biden loses, they are going to point at voters they had no reason to ever believe they were going to persuade and claim that was the deciding factor, just like Hillary did in 2016. It's a dodge to avoid confronting the real weaknesses and mistakes in their strategy.