The Trump Presidency: Part 20

[thaiboxerken]

Now he's doing his daily gas-lighting and trying to justify crippling the W.H.O.

 

[Bob001]

Not only that but you also have a significant number of people who didn't vote for Trump or Clinton.

A critical election where one of the options is a racist con-artist/failed business man, and millions of voters decided he wasn't a bad enough problem to stop, so they voted 3rd party, spoiled their ballot, or didn't vote at all. (They may not have voted FOR Trump, but they didn't do much to oppose him either.)

The 2016 election was complex, but I continue to believe that part of the problem was the smug tone of Clinton's "I deserve to win, I'm sure to win" campaign. A certain percentage of people voted for Trump not because they wanted him to be President, but for the same reason others voted for third parties: They wanted to cast a protest vote against the "establishment," and believed they could do so without consequences. If Clinton had gone to Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and said "You can't sit this out! I need every vote! I need your vote!" the outcome might have been different.

 

[The Atheist]

I haven't been following all the posts, so I don't know if this has been posted yet, but it's pretty damning - US firms given all-clear to send masks to China in late Feb: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-admin-still-pushed-mask-exports-to-china-in-late-feb

 

[thaiboxerken]

I find it hard to find fault in Hillary's campaign since Trump, the GOP, and Putin cheated to get Trump elected.

 

[Bob001]

I find it hard to find fault in Hillary's campaign since Trump, the GOP, and Putin cheated to get Trump elected.

I don't know that Trump and the GOP cheated, but in any case Clinton wasn't adept enough to respond, even when her own husband and VP Biden were telling her she was in trouble. That doesn't change my point that some people didn't vote for her because they were sure they didn't need to.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

The fact that nearly half the voters in America chose Trump says something about our society, and it isn't pretty.


Our society isn't uniform by any means, but the fact that so many people were willing to vote for Donald Trump means there is something thoroughly rotten within American society.



(That doesn't mean I think everyone who voted for Trump is a bad person, but the fact that he could win the nomination says something pretty bad about us as a people.)

The fact that insecure, rigged, hacked elections were allowed to APPOINT Trump and there was virtually no response by the systems designed to protect us from such other than mere words says something worse.

 

[Stacyhs]

Double post

 

[Stacyhs]

Oh, good lord. Trump just claimed again that Mexico is going to reimburse us for the cost of The Wall one way or another.

He also claimed his Chinese tariffs have made us a lot of money.

What a putz.

 

[Bob001]

The fact that insecure, rigged, hacked elections were allowed to APPOINT Trump and there was virtually no response by the systems designed to protect us from such other than mere words says something worse.

Let's not go over the edge. Nobody's found any evidence or proven any claims that any elections were hacked or rigged. What's clear is that Putin manipulated social media to influence voter opinion, and Wikileaks' email releases influenced the campaign. It's also clear that the Clinton campaign wasn't adept enough to respond effectively.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

Let's not go over the edge. Nobody's found any evidence or proven any claims that any elections were hacked or rigged. What's clear is that Putin manipulated social media to influence voter opinion, and Wikileaks' email releases influenced the campaign. It's also clear that the Clinton campaign wasn't adept enough to respond effectively.

Untrue. The FBI found plenty of evidnece that state election systems were rigged. Plus, the GOP is known to have vote-flipping software as far back as 2000, per the sworn Congressional Testimony of Clint Curtis, who WROTE it for them.

There's plenty of other evidence from the testimonies of voters who actually SAW their votes change on electronic voting macines in past elections. Plus those who exposed the security flaw in the Diebold machines, and on and on and on.

The evidence is plentiful if you bother to look.

https://www.electionsatrisk.org/

https://blackboxvoting.org/

https://www.unhackthevote.com/category/elections/

https://www.bradblog.com/?page_id=9437 (Curtis tetimony video and transcript)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/us/politics/russian-hacking-elections.html

Plenty more evidence out there.

 

[Meadmaker]

The 2016 election was complex, but I continue to believe that part of the problem was the smug tone of Clinton's "I deserve to win, I'm sure to win" campaign. A certain percentage of people voted for Trump not because they wanted him to be President, but for the same reason others voted for third parties: They wanted to cast a protest vote against the "establishment," and believed they could do so without consequences. If Clinton had gone to Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and said "You can't sit this out! I need every vote! I need your vote!" the outcome might have been different.

I, personally, do not want to rehash Trump's victory, especially as it relates to Trump vs. Hillary in the general election. People who voted for Trump did so for a variety of reasons and not all of them are bad.

My point was in relation to one of Trump's childish tweets. That childishness, along with the narcissism, strong disregard for the truth, and other character flaws have been present since the beginning. He shouldn't have even had any cameras watching him come down the escalator, and yet, here we are.

I, personally, always emphasize how awful it is that he won the GOP nomination, because I can forgive someone for disliking the Democrats badly enough that they would prefer Donald Trump to a Democrat. However, I can't respect anyone who thought Donald Trump was the best Republican available. The man is in no way "presidential".

We elected a showman. A reality TV star. A fraud. That says something very bad about our society.

ETA: And we are paying a price for it. Our sins are coming back to haunt us. He's still putting on a show, daily, and bragging about how popular his show is, but I don't see any sign that he is leading on any subject. He's being dragged by events and declaring that he's doing a great job.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I find it hard to find fault in Hillary's campaign since Trump, the GOP, and Putin cheated to get Trump elected.

If your strategy is ,"please don't convince my dumb voters to not do something dumb like not vote for me." Then I have no sympathy. Get smarter voters

 

[Bob001]

From one of your own links:

It concluded that while there was no evidence that any votes were changed in actual voting machines, “Russian cyberactors were in a position to delete or change voter data” in the Illinois voter database. The committee found no evidence that they did so.

That's the bottom line. Clinton got three million more popular votes than Trump. Putin didn't create the Electoral College. We did that to ourselves.

 

[Segnosaur]

The 2016 election was complex, but I continue to believe that part of the problem was the smug tone of Clinton's "I deserve to win, I'm sure to win" campaign.

It doesn't matter what her "tone" was (whatever that means). Trump was worse in pretty much every possible way. "I'd rather vote for this racist con-artist who is such a bad businessman that he bankrupted multiple casinos just because I don't like Hillary's tone" seems like a pretty dumb argument to make.

And what exactly does 'tone' mean in this context? Did she come right out and say "I deserve to be president"? Its an election.. the whole point of it is to show "I'm better than my opponent".

Anyone complaining about Hillary's "tone" as the reason they supported Trump is probably just trying to slap a fig-leaf on their stupidity/racism.

A certain percentage of people voted for Trump not because they wanted him to be President, but for the same reason others voted for third parties: They wanted to cast a protest vote against the "establishment," and believed they could do so without consequences.

Their "protest vote" should have gone to say "we protest racist con-artists", instead of just some vague "anti-establishment". But that's just me.

If Clinton had gone to Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and said "You can't sit this out! I need every vote! I need your vote!" the outcome might have been different.

You are right... she should have gone to Michigan, etc. It was one of the things that happened that really was her mistake.

But unless they were living in a cave for the previous year, most voters were probably already acutely aware of the policies and personal qualities of both the candidates. Voters should have recognized how damaging Trump could have been even without a personal visit from Clinton.

 

[newyorkguy]

If this was just happening in the U.S. I would agree. Only it's not just happening in the U.S. This is from the BBC:

Nationalism has always been a feature across Europe's political spectrum but there has been a recent boom in voter support for right-wing and populist parties. Link

It's not just the U.S. and Europe, either. Right wing populists groups have gained in Australia, Brazil, India, Japan, Israel, Pakistan and Thailand.

How quickly right-wing populism has spread globally, or at least in the countries with democratic systems, is remarkable. When this decade began, hardly any of the parties and leaders that now run the world, or appear set to, were on anyone’s radar. Now these movements are spreading quickly. Among the world’s democracies, a growing number has embraced right-wing populism, and either have governments led by populist parties, or supported by them. Link

 

[Bob001]

......
And what exactly does 'tone' mean in this context? Did she come right out and say "I deserve to be president"? Its an election.. the whole point of it is to show "I'm better than my opponent".

Anyone complaining about Hillary's "tone" as the reason they supported Trump is probably just trying to slap a fig-leaf on their stupidity/racism.
.....

My point is that she -- and the pundits -- promoted the message that she was sure to win. The consequence is that some voters who would have supported her in the (previously) blue states stayed home because they didn't think their votes were needed. And I contend that some people voted for Trump not because they supported him, but because they thought their votes wouldn't matter. Surprise!

 

[Meadmaker]

If this was just happening in the U.S. I would agree. Only it's not just happening in the U.S. This is from the BBC:


It's not just the U.S. and Europe, either. Right wing populists groups have gained in Australia, Brazil, India, Japan, Israel, Pakistan and Thailand.

And I could even deal with a "nationalist" in the White House. I'm kind of ok with that. It's not something I think is great, but I get it, and I am not appalled by it.

However, we have a childish, fraudulent, nationalist in the White House. I object. This guy can't even make the trains run on time.

 

[Mumbles]

It doesn't matter what her "tone" was (whatever that means). Trump was worse in pretty much every possible way. "I'd rather vote for this racist con-artist who is such a bad businessman that he bankrupted multiple casinos just because I don't like Hillary's tone" seems like a pretty dumb argument to make.

And what exactly does 'tone' mean in this context? Did she come right out and say "I deserve to be president"? Its an election.. the whole point of it is to show "I'm better than my opponent".

Anyone complaining about Hillary's "tone" as the reason they supported Trump is probably just trying to slap a fig-leaf on their stupidity/racism.

I'd say more sexism than racism - there were a lot of people going on about how she was a "scold" and she was "too prepared". She "Has Bill's nuts in her purse". Much like the similar attacks on Warren, that sort of thing isn't even subtle - it's at the level of Dolt 45 saying Judge Curiel couldn't possibly be unbiased because "He's Mexican."

Their "protest vote" should have gone to say "we protest racist con-artists", instead of just some vague "anti-establishment". But that's just me.

Particularly since voters had rather strongly told any "establishment" to get bent a mere 8 years earlier, when Obama used a smart strategy ad rocketed up from "Haha, who?" to "Hey Clyburn, change your endorsement to him or else." Yes, I'm saying that an unknown outsider with a strong ground game can convince the voters no matter what the DNC says - Sanders simply had a crap ground game, twice in a row.

You are right... she should have gone to Michigan, etc. It was one of the things that happened that really was her mistake.

But unless they were living in a cave for the previous year, most voters were probably already acutely aware of the policies and personal qualities of both the candidates. Voters should have recognized how damaging Trump could have been even without a personal visit from Clinton.

The main issue, as others noted, is that she couldn't see Comey outright breaking policy and interfering within 60 days of the election - and nobody else would anticipate any such thing, either. Hell, had Dolt 45 simply said that that was why he had fired Comey, instead of outright stating that he did it because of "the Russia thing", I'd have had to go along with it.

 

[Segnosaur]

I don't know that Trump and the GOP cheated

Except we know they did.

We know for example that:
- Trump violated campaign finance laws by paying off Stormy Daniels
- Republicans often engage in voter suppression
- While Mueller didn't find evidence of direct coordination between Russian interests and the Trump campaign, they did display a willingness to work together, and made use of information obtained from Russian hacks

but in any case Clinton wasn't adept enough to respond

What exactly do you expect her to do? Use a time-machine to send Cohen back in time to warn us about the illegal Stormy Daniels payments? Use a mind-control ray to change Putin's mind about interfering in American elections?

She was a candidate, not a superhero. If the republicans were cheating, there isn't really that could have been done to address it.

That doesn't change my point that some people didn't vote for her because they were sure they didn't need to.

I am sure there are people who thought "She'll win, don't need to vote for her". They were foolish. Which is one of the worries many people have about the American political system. Dumb, foolish, racist voters.

 

[Cain]

With the replacement of IG's with loyalists, I fear Trump is going to make a power play to outright steal elections along with much of the Covid funds.

If he does do that, then I'm not going to like it, but... I'll forgive him. Just kidding, I'll deny it ever happened and say "What about Hunter Biden?"