smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Johnny Bag O'Donuts also blew the whistle on Bill Clinton porking a White House intern, at a point where Billy Boy and the intern where the only ones who knew.
How do Truthers explain the cooperation/coordination needed within the US govt...
- Thread starter Allen773
- Start date
Johnny Bag O'Donuts also blew the whistle on Bill Clinton porking a White House intern, at a point where Billy Boy and the intern where the only ones who knew.
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2004
- Messages
- 14,971
So the project manager for the 9/11 false flag operation has to find a large team of construction workers, engineers and demolition experts and approach them and say "Here's what we would like you to do - betray your country and murder thousands of your fellow citizens in cold blood and never tell anyone for the rest of your life. But if you don't want to be involved, just don't tell anybody that we asked you, OK?".
And hundreds, if not thousands, all reply "Sure, no problem".
I don't think so.
And they approach two airlines and say "we need you to falsify some information for us so that we can murder thousands of Americans in cold blood"
And the airlines say "Sure, any help we can give you just ask".
And in turn they say to their employees in accounts, IT, flight planning etc "Hey, here is a list of information we need you to falsify so that the Government can murder thousands of Americans in cold blood. Just don't ever tell anyone about this."
As Allen773 says in the OP, very plausible.
And hundreds, if not thousands, all reply "Sure, no problem".
I don't think so.
And they approach two airlines and say "we need you to falsify some information for us so that we can murder thousands of Americans in cold blood"
And the airlines say "Sure, any help we can give you just ask".
And in turn they say to their employees in accounts, IT, flight planning etc "Hey, here is a list of information we need you to falsify so that the Government can murder thousands of Americans in cold blood. Just don't ever tell anyone about this."
As Allen773 says in the OP, very plausible.
Allen773
Graduate Poster
Yet the intern, ironically, was by no means the first person to “blow the whistle” on Bill, so to speak.
I’ll show myself out.
Axxman300
Philosopher
SECRET BLACK-OPS MEETING TRANSCRIPT:
Mr.X : The plan is to fake an attack on the US by flying four jumbo jets into specific targets.
Col. Y: What are the targets?
Mr. X: Both towers of the WTC in New York, the Pentagon, and a field somewhere in Pennsylvania.
Col. Y: Okay, what? Why crash a plane into Pennsylvania?
Mr.X: I'll get to that. Phase 1 will be the crashes, and Phase 2 will be the collapse of the buildings using controlled demolition.
Col Y: Are you nuts? Why not rig the buildings with explosives and set them off instead of flying jumbo jets into them?
Mr.X: We need a believable narrative?
Col Y: What kind of narrative?
Mr.X: We plan to invade Afghanistan and Iraq under the cover of these attacks. Those buildings need to come down.
Col Y: Why isn't crashing jets into the targets enough?
Mr X: We need the visuals, footage of the towers collapsing will be played over and over enraging the American people until they demand revenge.
Col Y: Okay. And we frame Iraqi Republican Guards and the Taliban for the attacks?
Mr.X: No, we'll frame Egyptians, Saudis, and everyone but Iraqis?
Col Y: But you said we're using the attacks as an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan? Why aren't we going to frame their governments?
Mr X: Too obvious.
Col Y: But won't the American people prefer we deal with the Saudis?
Mr.X: Leave that to me.
Col Y: Okay, so we invade Iraq and Afghanistan a week after the attack, right?
Mr X: No, fool, we invade Afghanistan first because we're framing Al Qaeda.
Col Y: Why not just strike Al Qaeda now? They bombed two of our embassies and the USS Cole. Why not just fake an intelligence report that they're planning a big strike in the US and then thwack them and invade Afghanistan under that pretense?
Mr X: We need dead Americans.
Col Y: When do we invade Iraq?
Mr X: Two years later. We're going to claim that they're stockpiling WMD's.
Col Y: They don't have any WMD's. Are we going to fly in some of our chemical stockpile to plant in Iraq?
Mr X: No.
Col Y: So we're going to wire three buildings with demo charges and fly jumbo jets - not hijacked by Iraqis or Afghans - into these targets to invade two countries...because why?
Mr X: Money and control.
Col Y: My kid is at Harvard and he says the money will be in something called Social Media.
Mr X: No, war is the answer (twirls mustache).
bknight
Master Poster
Seems legit. The major flaw in every conspiracy theory is that there were much easier ways of getting the same end goal without even really trying. Dummy up some intelligence reports, start war. Or, just start the war. Justify it later.
You've summed up wonderfully why the whole conspiracy narrative is a non-starter for me.
Axxman300
Philosopher
Remember the No-Fly Zone? Every time Iraq shot at one of our planes it was a violation of the cease-fire agreement they sign. Clinton used a couple of attacks to blow up a bunch of stuff in Iraq while he was POTUS. Cease-Fire doesn't mean we were at peace with Iraq, it meant we'd stop shooting at them if they stopped shooting at us. We didn't 911, we didn't need WMD's, all we had to do - if the plan was to invade Iraq - was to wait until Saddam did something massively stupid...which would have come sooner or later...
Agreed. There were also things part of the cease fire, the return of Kuwait artifacts if I remember correctly, than also never happened.
Hell, we were so certain he had WMDs we didn't even bother trying to plant any. But yeah, wait or manufacture something far less complicated.
Also, people assume the outcome was the intent. Nobody thought the WTCs would collapse. So basing the theory on something not intended is wrong on multiple levels.
Redwood
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- May 9, 2012
- Messages
- 1,557
You've summed up wonderfully why the whole conspiracy narrative is a non-starter for me.
The solution is obvious: "They" organized the team by invading the homes of all these experts, shot the dog or whatever to prove this was no joke, threw the person to the ground, began dumping Krugerrands in front of them until the floor began to groan under the weight, then held a gun to their head and told them they could "take the gold or take the bullet".
Ever since, they get a sack of gold personally delivered to their door. It makes more sense than any other Truther explanation.
Axxman300
Philosopher
The thing I love about Truthers is they clearly do no understand New Yorkers. They certainly do not understand the NYPD or the FDNY.
First off, the idea that law enforcement can act with impunity in NYC is a joke. New Yorkers will get in the face of anyone with a badge that they feel is not explaining the situation to their satisfaction. And they will do so loudly. New Yorkers don't care if you're wearing FBI or ATF windbreakers they will stop you and ask what the hell is going on and when are you moving the vans and are you going to pay my parking ticket?
New Yorkers are fun this way.
The NYPD takes guff from the citizenry but it doesn't take crap. 23 uniformed officers of the NYPD were killed on 911. 37 Port Authority Police officers were killed on 911. Nobody murders an NYPD officer and gets away with it. In fact, for some reason cop-killers in NYC are rarely taken alive. The idea that they would ignore evidence of explosives or cow to the FBI/CIA/Insert Your Evil Doer Here is not just naive, it's stupid. And yes, it is safe to assume that members of the NYPD and retired NYPD detectives quietly looked into conspiracy theories over the years because that's what they do. Had they found anything like the 911 nutjobs claim it would be front page news. All they've got is Saudi money going to Al Qaeda, and that was not really a secret.
Seriously, try to tell a New Yorker to shut up sometime.
First off, the idea that law enforcement can act with impunity in NYC is a joke. New Yorkers will get in the face of anyone with a badge that they feel is not explaining the situation to their satisfaction. And they will do so loudly. New Yorkers don't care if you're wearing FBI or ATF windbreakers they will stop you and ask what the hell is going on and when are you moving the vans and are you going to pay my parking ticket?
New Yorkers are fun this way.
The NYPD takes guff from the citizenry but it doesn't take crap. 23 uniformed officers of the NYPD were killed on 911. 37 Port Authority Police officers were killed on 911. Nobody murders an NYPD officer and gets away with it. In fact, for some reason cop-killers in NYC are rarely taken alive. The idea that they would ignore evidence of explosives or cow to the FBI/CIA/Insert Your Evil Doer Here is not just naive, it's stupid. And yes, it is safe to assume that members of the NYPD and retired NYPD detectives quietly looked into conspiracy theories over the years because that's what they do. Had they found anything like the 911 nutjobs claim it would be front page news. All they've got is Saudi money going to Al Qaeda, and that was not really a secret.
Seriously, try to tell a New Yorker to shut up sometime.
They also assume the absolute worst about members of the military and federal government as a whole. As someone who has been both, it's not filled with sociopaths.
Someone would have at least raised an objection by now. A polite cough? But nope, nothing. And as big as it would have to had been, someone in the group would have certainly not been sociopathic all the time. Gone back on the meds or something.
Athyrio
Hipster Doofus
That was always my first thought when a truther threw that one out.
“Never occurred to me. Sounds like something you would do, given the opportunity”.
The Common Potato
Muse
It's that special type of compartmentalisation when no one knows what other people are doing yet simultaneously worth closely with them.
Axxman300
Philosopher
A good model of a large covert operation was the F-117 Program. The plane originated with a handful of competing aircraft prototypes in the late 1970's, all of them managed to stay secret until the late 1990's. The F-117 grew out of Lockheed Skunkwork's Have Blue prototype, which first flew in 1981, and the USAF spun up an active F-117 squadron in 1983, and was able to maintain secrecy until 1988 when an accident helped force the USAF's hand and they revealed the plane's existence to the public.
The F-117 was a program which involved hundreds of people in both the military and civilian world. The planes were built in Burbank, CA, and flown out to Groom Lake, and eventually based at Tonopah, NV (still there, BTW). They were flown at night, had their own dedicated KC-135 air tankers, and everyone was sworn to secrecy which was easy because the F-117 was too cool for school.
Problem was that it wasn't entirely secret.
In the mid-1980's rumors swirled within the aviation community about the USAF flying something weird in the middle of the night out in the desert south-west. The Japanese company, Hasagawa, who makes plastic airplane model kits, featured a mysterious silver stealth aircraft shadowing an A-7 in it's box art picture. The F-117's cover story was they were a squadron of A-7's with new ELINT goodies. Somehow the Japanese put two and two together.
By 1988 the USAF was forced to go public if for no other reason than keeping the program secret was expensive. And by that time Popular Mechanics was running cover stories and the F-117 was more trouble as a secret than just another cool plane.
The lesson?
A good black-op can count on 10 years of secrecy - IF IT'S LUCKY. Even then someone always knows something's up. With the F-117 the stories were always consistent: planes flew at night, dead pilots were given cover-stories about flying A-7's, whatever it was it was out at Tonopah. This contrasts dramatically with 911 Truthers whose stories are all over the place, and to date not one has been substantiated. The only side conspiracies, such as they are, the CIA-FBI bungling and the Saudi money were known in principle on 9/12/2001, and have only been fleshed out over time.
The F-117 was a program which involved hundreds of people in both the military and civilian world. The planes were built in Burbank, CA, and flown out to Groom Lake, and eventually based at Tonopah, NV (still there, BTW). They were flown at night, had their own dedicated KC-135 air tankers, and everyone was sworn to secrecy which was easy because the F-117 was too cool for school.
Problem was that it wasn't entirely secret.
In the mid-1980's rumors swirled within the aviation community about the USAF flying something weird in the middle of the night out in the desert south-west. The Japanese company, Hasagawa, who makes plastic airplane model kits, featured a mysterious silver stealth aircraft shadowing an A-7 in it's box art picture. The F-117's cover story was they were a squadron of A-7's with new ELINT goodies. Somehow the Japanese put two and two together.
By 1988 the USAF was forced to go public if for no other reason than keeping the program secret was expensive. And by that time Popular Mechanics was running cover stories and the F-117 was more trouble as a secret than just another cool plane.
The lesson?
A good black-op can count on 10 years of secrecy - IF IT'S LUCKY. Even then someone always knows something's up. With the F-117 the stories were always consistent: planes flew at night, dead pilots were given cover-stories about flying A-7's, whatever it was it was out at Tonopah. This contrasts dramatically with 911 Truthers whose stories are all over the place, and to date not one has been substantiated. The only side conspiracies, such as they are, the CIA-FBI bungling and the Saudi money were known in principle on 9/12/2001, and have only been fleshed out over time.
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2001
- Messages
- 15,925
They’d be the first to opportune from any grift or bribe they can make from the conspiracy, yet they constantly try to present themselves as the only honest men.
heymatto70
Thinker
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2016
- Messages
- 182
$100,000 seems pretty cheap to sell out your country and help murder thousands of people.
Fonebone
persona non grata
[excerpt]
The Coinage Act of 1792 established the dime (spelled "disme" in the legislation), cent, and mill as
subdivisions of the dollar equal to 1⁄10, 1⁄100 and 1⁄1000 dollar respectively.
The first known proposal for a decimal-based coinage system in the United States was made in 1783....[/excerpt]
One hundred MILL equals ten cents US
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
Wait, so you are saying you would betray your country and soil your good name for 10 cents?
Is this your explanation for the question in the OP? That everyone is as cheap, cynical and self-hating as you?
Allen773
Graduate Poster
I for one am quite confident in the US government’s ability to coordinate large operations, as evidenced by the response to the Coronavirus pandemic.